Who was the greatest fighter out of the fabulous 4?

If it is a head-to-head matchup between the 3, I have to give it Leonard, Hagler next, Hearns and Duran.

 

Call me naive but I didn’t know there was such a dislike of Leonard (by some) until I came to this forum.

Of course I’m not including Mark Dunham (née Rooster) among that contingent).

I guess it spawns from the belief that Leonard kicked his career off with a silver spoon in his mouth - which was the antithesis view of a blue collar fighter like Hagler.

Even so, until he retired the first time, Ray well and truly proved his worth as great fighter. He was something else to watch in his absolute prime.

Then later, perhaps, the negative attitudes toward Ray were compounded when Ray made his selective comebacks - bringing himself to the fore like a perfectly timed impact player brought on later in the game.

I don’t dislike Ray at all - but it’s a real factor to consider that while Ray was having his “breaks” the others were paying their dues with more active careers, accruing all the lumps and wear/tear that go along with same.

Certainly, it was a factor (the wear/tear) that Ray himself was very much aware of when he reasoned why he had better chance against Hagler than most were affording him.

 

Estimating the fighters at their best. Ray is also responsible for the fight not being shifted. I don't think a fighter wanting to prove himself the better one would prefer to fight a poorly conditioned opponent. Ray did, irrespective of Duran's lack of discipline.

I also don't understand how Duran being great 6 months before has any bearing on his poor conditioning 6 months later. These are some logic leaps to embellish Leonard's rematch victory. Everything from making Duran a welterweight to turning a blind eye to his conditioning going into the rematch. These can easily be labelled excuses for Ray Leonard.

 

Leonard had a very poor showing against Norris but nobody brings it up the same way we bring up Duran's losses or Hagler's or Hearns'. There is no anti-Leonard sentiment. His dominance just wasn't as straightforward as some believe. Many think he lost against Hagler, yet nobody is arguing for it because a guy jumping 2 weight divisions and fighting after a 3 year lay off shouldn't do as well as he did.

Otoh Duran is turned into some career welterweight just because he beat Leonard the 1st fight. His poor conditioning in the 2nd fight is dismissed because it makes Leonard look less good than he should, even though SRL believes that himself. And now the entire concept of weight divisions is thrown out the window and a Lightweight stepping 3-4 weight divisions is supposed to beat younger, bigger men otherwise he is the worst of them even in p4p sense. There seems to be anti-Duran sentiment more than anything.

 

Benitez has the fairest victory over Duran post-Ligtweight in my imo. He didn't jump around like SRL, he outslicked and countered Duran all night. I don't think Duran ever claimed that he didn't train for it. He was just too slow for Benitez, too slow in general ever since he stepped up to 154 and above. Davey moore was physically ill for their fight and guys like Barkley played right into his hands. Duran in the 80s was very crafty but he was continuously declining.

 

P4P H2H is probably even more subjective than greatness, so you're entitled to your opinion and I can't disprove it.

I agree Hagler is a h2h monster. Most people would rank Duran higher, p4p h2h, though.

Certainly their fight supports Duran ranking higher. An ATG LW running a consensus top 4 MW to a relatively close decision is staggering. Its insane, in fact.

There are 4 weight divisions between LW and MW. There are 2 between MW and LHW. I know how I think Hagler would have gotten on vs the ATG LHW Micheal Spinks at 175. I know how ATG WW Jose Napoles did get on 2 divisions up against ATG MW Carlos Monzon.

I know it's only 1 fight and I'm not claiming its the sole or definitive barometer of how each should rank h2h p4p, but in the context of their fight, if an ATG LW and ATG MW were equal H2H P4P, then the MW should either utterly destroy or toy with the LW. It would be a mismatch.

 

Agreed. And it was Hagler who was in the dead middle of his prime, while Duran was 3 years past his. Although if Hagler had speed like Benitez or Hearns it may have been a wash.

 

If Leonard was any sort of man he would have went and visited Duran weekly, checking his weight. If he was tardy in losing it Leonard could have shared his camp, roomed with him even. He could have watched what he was eating, perhaps even prepared his meals for him while keeping him away from the putas. He could have got him up every morning for their roadwork and massaged him later. They could have refused a fight date until both were happy with Durans conditioning and form so duran fans could feel pure and happy some 30-40 years later.

You'd think Leonard also would have had the good grace to thank Duran for stalking his wife each time she left her hotel, taunting her with i **** you after i beat your husband.....i mean what an offer!!!! Not to mention telling Juanita he would "i keel your husband, i keel your husband" every time he saw them

 

I would make a shrine for Leonard if he did any of this.

 

While Duran was disrespectful to Ray's wife he was a gentleman around his son. Ray said when they did the 7 Up commercial with their sons Duran was a total gentleman. I'll give him credit for that.

 

We are now giving credit to Duran for being civilised to a literal child.

We really do hold Hands of Stone to an asburdly low standard.

 

Duran also said he never knocked out a horse. He said why would I hit a beautiful animal.

 

Duran had a 3 month camp, as MrKoolkevin has documented, and Arcel said after the fight that he was in fine shape. And Leonard sure as **** didn't look closer to his very best in the first than Duran did in the second. Who knows exactly what kind of mood they were in on the night in question.

But the fact is that, Leonard gave it his all in the first and almost turned the fight around after getting battered in the first half. Duran quit like a ***** when things were going against him. So it's patently absurd to say anything but that Leonard got the better of the first two fights (of the the third too obviously, but it doesn't say much, since Duran was closing in on 40 while Leonard still had a bit left).

 

Those that claim obviously haven't got the memo. Duran's own excuse is that he overtrained, believe it or not. The Panamanian military pretty much locked him up in camp, so the usual "I didn't train" wasn't as feasible. So the opposite direction it was.