Who was the greatest fighter out of the fabulous 4?

I reckon it was probably John Lennon.

 

It would depend on WHEN they started boxing. One of the reasons why Duran spent so much time in the lighter weight classes was because he turned pro when he was 15. By the time he was fighting at welterweight he was around 27 which is right around when a lot of fighters hit their primes. By the time he fought Leonard he was maybe 28-29 and had been fighting at welter for two years. I agree that Duran did some amazing things for starting so small but there’s definitely an explanation behind some of that

 

This is an excellent point.

There seems to be this pervading narrative that Duran's exploits at 147lbs and above are comparable to what Michael Spinks was doing at Heavyweight or what Johnny Tapia attempted to do up at 126lbs.

There can be little doubt that by the time of the Palomino fight that Duran was a legitimate Welterweight, a world class Welterweight. In many ways, a superior fighter to the guy that looked rather ordinary against the likes of Bizzarro, Viruet and Fernandez down at 135lbs.

 

I think he grew into welter nicely. It would be different if he were 33-34 years and only stepping up there for one big pay day. But I think for all practical purpose Duran was in his prime in his late 20’s. And in truth he was always somewhat on the bigger end of lightweight

 

I absolutely agree with you and have said the same many times.
In my opinion welterweight fit Duran like a glove, and the results
he had there speaks for itself.
Personally, Duran looked more natural at welterweight than May Jr,
or Crawford.

 

He was still a young man and one with a lot of experience when fighting at welter. Yes he was a superb lightweight but that doesn’t mean he was “ past his prime at welter. “ and the other thing people forget is that Leonard hadn’t been in the pros all that long when they met

 

The 5ft 7ins tall, 66ins reach, Duran last fought at LW age 26. He ranks highest, in terms of greatness & H2H, at LW.

The 5ft 9ins, 70.5ins reach, SRL last fought at WW age 25. He ranks highest, in terms of greatness & H2H, at WW.

The 6ft 1ins, 78ins reach, Hearns last fought at WW age 22 & at LMW age 27. He ranks highest, in terms of greatness & H2H, at LMW.

This isn't like Canzoneri or McLarnin fighting at BW as 17-year olds & then maturing into a LW & a WW, respectively, as grown men in their early to mid 20's. Duran didn't have some bizarre growth spurt that meant he naturally gained 12lbs between the ages of 26 & 27. He just cut less, just as SRL & Hearns did when they left WW. The fact Duran was a world class WW from age 27 until he left that division, is testament to his p4p brilliance.

There's no getting away from it, Duran was a peak LW, SRL a peak WW, Hearns a peak LMW & Hagler a peak MW. So, in modern day terms, SRL was naturally 2 x weight divisions bigger than Duran, peak for peak. Hearns 3 x division bigger & Hagler 4 x divisions bigger. All fought Duran in their peak weight division during their prime years. Their results against each other should be viewed in that context.

I've no problem if people rank SRL above Duran p4p based on their entire careers, I disagree, but it's subjective and whilst it's a stretch imo, a defensible argument can just about be made. However, I just can't accept H2H results amongst the Fab Four as being a valid reason, as it ignores size. Joey Maxim beat SRR. Carl Thompson beat Chris Eubank 2 out 2. Jess Willard would have beaten Jimmy Wilde (admittedly, a gross exaggeration, to demonstrate a concept). In each case the smaller fighter is clearly the "greater" p4p.

 

Let me ask you something. If Leonard, Hagler and Hearns turned pro at 15 would you really expect their starting weights to be 145, 154 and 160 ? You also seemed to have put a great deal of mention in heights and reaches in that post. Do you realize that Dwight Qawi was 5’6” at light heavy then cruiser ? Would you say that Duran’s wins at light weight over Buchanan and Dejesus were better than his later wins against Leonard, Palomino, Cuevas and Barkley ?

 

No, though that is immaterial to the points I made. Duran weighted 119lbs, and not 135lbs, for the 3 x pro fights he had has a 15-year old, so, with respect, this question is irrelevant to our discussion.

What is of much more relevance is what each weighed in title fights as fully mature, grown, but still physically peak, men, aged 24 to 26. LW for Duran, WW for SRL, LWM for Hearns & MW for Hagler.

Also relevant is the weight division each typically ranks highest in for achievements. LW for Duran, WW for SRL, LWM for Hearns & MW for Hagler.

Also relevant is the weight division each typically ranks highest H2H. LW for Duran, WW for SRL, LWM for Hearns & MW for Hagler.

Now let me ask you something. Do you consider Duran, SRL, Hearns and Hagler as all being the same size? As in, they had the same natural peak weight division? If so, why do you think the vast majority rate Duran higher than SRL P4P and pretty much everybody ranks him higher than Hearns and Hagler P4P?

 

I think Duran was prime in his late 20’s and at welter. He was a fully matured 26-29 years of age with a lot of experience and would gather his career best wins both at and above welter. Just because light weight was SEEN as his most successful weight does not mean it was his best weight. Guys grow at different rates and their bodies settle at different times.

 

Who do you think was the smallest of the fab 4?

 

Smallest in terms of what ? Height ? Reach? Best weight ? Obviously he was naturally smaller than Hearns and Hagler but I’m not claiming those guys rank higher either.

 

Is it your contention that everything north of 135lbs was a past prime, compromised version of Roberto Duran? @Greg Price99

 

Overall, naturally the smallest. As in, who could safely make the lightest weight during their prime years.

I don't think there is one definitive way of assessing whether one fighter was bigger than another, but there is a combination of reasonable measures you can apply, that when viewed in combination can give a clear indication, including:

1) Lightest weight division a world title was won in - Duran LW; SRL WW. Conclusion = Duran is smaller

2) Weights at common ages - Duran was almost always lighter at the same respective ages. Conclusion = Duran is smaller

3) Weight division at which they rate the highest for achievement - our collective peers rank Duran #1 at LW -

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- our collective peers rank Duran #17 & SRL #2 at WW -

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. So, Duran ranks highest at LW, SRL at WW. Conclusion = Duran is smaller.

4) Weight division at which they rate the highest H2H - Duran typically rates highest H2H at LW, SRL at WW. Conclusion Duran is smaller

5) Size of their respective frames (height & reach) - On it's own not definitive, as per your Qawi example, but, given your seeming claim that Duran didn't fill out until age 28+, it's a relevant measure as this gives an idea of what weight division a fighter can fill out to. e.g. SRR, Napoles & Griffiths all rank higher at WW than Hearns, but none had the frame to fill out to 175lbs, still look lean & natural, and win a world title. Duran was 5ft 7ins with a 66ins reach; SRL 5ft 9ins (sometimes listed as 5ft 10ins) with a 70.5ins reach. Conclusion = Duran was smaller

6) Consensus opinion - If we made a poll, with the question "Who was smaller during their respective primes?", listing Duran & SRL as the two options, I'm confident over 90%, and probably over 95%, would vote Duran. Conclusion = Duran was smaller

If you disagree with any of the above, please state as much.

So far as I can understand, your counters that Duran & SRL were the same size at their respective peaks (assuming that's what you're arguing, as you've not explicitly stated as such yet) consists of:

1) What weight division was their best win at - I don't think this is as reliable as the above, part of what can contribute to a best win is it being against a naturally bigger fighter. However, even going with this, Duran's best win was at WW (SRL) & SRL's at MW (Hagler). Conclusion = Duran is smaller.

2) Your view - that Duran was neither fully developed physically nor prime for DeJesus 3, but rather he grew between the ages of 26 & 28, reaching a physical maturity, that SRL had reached years before he was 28. I can't disprove this view nor even entirely discount it's possibility, but I, like 95%+ of others, am comfortable that during their respective primes, SRL was significantly the bigger man of the two.

Please let me know if you have any counters I've missed. Imo, factor that are quantifiable &/or demonstrable, carry the most weight, pun very much intended

 

Hagler.