Who Was The Hardest Puncher Marciano Met?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mcvey, Sep 30, 2014.


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  1. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member

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    Please don't put words in my mouth I find I can speak quite well for myself.
    I dont rate Marciano as a dynamite one punch ko artist ,which is not what you have said is it?

    Louis is near the record for a heavyweight champ being floored probably only Patterson has more knockdowns against him:patsch


    Charles was down 8 times in 8rd s in a fight with Lloyd Marshall.7times in a fight with Jimmmy Bivins and floored by Ken Overlin who ko% is 23 kos in 163 fights , let's not pretend Charles had a great chin.
     
    mcvey, Oct 1, 2014
    mcvey, Oct 1, 2014
    #46
  2. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Ok. Fair enough. My error.
    I can't think of many dynamite one punch KO artists, it's rare to take out a good unhurt fighter with one dynamite punch, except mythical and anecdotal versions of Langford and Fitzsimmons, I'm not sure which HWs we'd put in the category. Certainly Foreman and Tyson rarely did it.

    I think Louis suffered a total of 10 KDs in about 70 fights. Only six men managed it.
    Walcott and Marciano account for half of that total, incidently.
    No one else between 1946 and 1951 floored old Louis.

    Louis was knocked down once when winning the title from Braddock, and hit the deck in only 4 of his 25 successful defences, for a total of 5 KDs .... and 3 of them came in his last two defences, against Walcott.

    In other words, Joe Louis was KD'd only twice in his first 23 defences !
    Against Galento and Baer, big heavy guys.

    There's no likeness to Patterson.

    In 27 total title fights he went 26-1 officially, over a 13 year period, and was knocked down six times.
    (He also never suffered a KO or TKO in a title fight.)

    Floyd Patterson. In 12 total title fights, went 8-4 over a 9 year period, and knocked down fifteen times.
    (He was KO'd or TKO'd in all 4 title fight losses).

    I happen to rate EVERY ONE of the men who floored Joe Louis as decent punchers. Braddock being the weakest hitter among them, and I believe he was a respectable hitter.

    I don't think the "old Louis" proved any easier to KD than the young version.

    Those fights happened YEARS before he was fighting Walcott, Marciano, Louis, Valdes, Baksi, Layne.
    Clearly his 'chin' improved, as your example of Overlin shows.
    And Bivins and Marshall were just too good for him at that point, I would suppose.
    No, I wouldn't say he had a great chin.
    I'd say Walcott landed a great punch on it though. :good
     
    Unforgiven, Oct 1, 2014
    Unforgiven, Oct 1, 2014
    #47
  3. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I don't see the purpose of denigrating Walcott as a puncher when he clearly hit hard. He impressed the fighters and trainers of his time with his power, and he impresses me on the film.

    It can be - and has been - "proven" on this forum that Earnie Shavers wasn't a murderous puncher, a second-rater who feasted on the dregs of the division and maybe knocked out roughly TWO highly-ranked HWs in his entire career, and no one particularly durable at that :lol:
    Still, I'd stick my neck out and say Shavers was a monster puncher because the guys who saw him and felt his punch reckoned it so. And he looks to be hitting hard on the film.
     
    Unforgiven, Oct 1, 2014
    Unforgiven, Oct 1, 2014
    #48
  4. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    its funny the double standard you often use, when I posted the guys that went the distance with Ron Lyle (guys that were getting KO'd in the same time frame) you still insisted he was a serious puncher but Louis who was fighting contenders and winning should be ignored as a puncher
     
    Bummy Davis, Oct 1, 2014
    Bummy Davis, Oct 1, 2014
    #49
  5. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member

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    Yes he did, he showed him the right and clouted him with the left.The one he landed on Rocky may have been equally as good but Marciano had a better chin than Charles.
     
    mcvey, Oct 1, 2014
    mcvey, Oct 1, 2014
    #50
  6. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member

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    Louis wasn't koing those guys ,spot the difference? Only 3 stoppages in his last 10 fights.Do you think Agramontex2 ,Bivins,Brion x2 would have heard the final bell with the real Brown Bomber?
     
    mcvey, Oct 1, 2014
    mcvey, Oct 1, 2014
    #51
  7. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Yes his average weight was ......







    209lb.
     
    choklab, Oct 1, 2014
    choklab, Oct 1, 2014
    #52
  8. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    it is not that funny.

    Do you know why it was that poor Alejandro Lavorante only had two more fights?
    He tragically died after the second one. He was carried out of the ring on a stretcher after the Archie Moore fight. as far as I know this was his first concussion. The Archie Moore knockout ruined 209lb Lavorante.

    Lavorante was proberbly not properly recoverd when he was decked twice by Ali in his next fight. then in an easier match he suffered the injury. This was a fighter who aside from the Logan blip was rated #4 in the world. after knocking out Zora Foley Patterson turned down a $500,000 offer to defend his title against Lavorante. Floyd wanted one milion.
     
    choklab, Oct 1, 2014
    choklab, Oct 1, 2014
    #53
  9. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member

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    What's funny is the implication that he had a long career but never managed another win.I have the account of Lavorante's death in a Ring magazine, why is it people assume they are the keepers of the Holy Grail and everyone else knows nothing?

    Im not sure but I believe Lavorante was only rated briefly in1961, he died in 64 after his last fight in 62.His only win of any real consequence was over Folley.

    Lavorante was beaten by Roy Harris who 5 months later was dropped 3 times and kod by Liston inside a round, let's not make it look like he was a champion in waiting.
     
    mcvey, Oct 1, 2014
    mcvey, Oct 1, 2014
    #54
  10. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Archie being the first man to knock Lavorante out was still a big deal. Lavorante was not a nobody. Lavorante was still The first man to knockout Foley since the mighty Liston. Proving Archie Moore was still a dangerous puncher even then.
     
    choklab, Oct 2, 2014
    choklab, Oct 2, 2014
    #55
  11. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    So what you are saying is that you agree that Joe Louis still punched hard enough since he decked Agramante and so far as I know all these rated fighters did not? Although not his best joe Louis was still clearly a dangerous puncher. You just proved it to me.
     
    choklab, Oct 2, 2014
    choklab, Oct 2, 2014
    #56
  12. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member

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    He wasn't a nobody , neither was he "the champion in waiting", he was a reasonably decent contender for a very brief moment with one quality win on his record.

    Lavorante hadn't met any punchers when he faced Moore, about 98% of his 21 fights were over journeymen at that stage . Folley had only had 2 fights since being kod by Liston,they were against trial horse Willie Besmanoff who had a 20% ko record, and 8-2-0 Norman Letcher who quit saying he was outclassed .
    Besmanoff stopped 19 of his 93 opponents ,he hadn't stopped anyone for
    3 years! and that was Albert Westphal 4-1-0.

    Besmanoff had won 2 of his last 11 fights! One was Alex Miteff who retired with a twisted knee:patsch . I dont need to mention Letcher again do I?

    In the light of these inconvenient facts,

    Lavorante being the next to stop Folley ,[whose chin was never too sound,] after Liston, and Moore koing Lavorante do not constitute big deals at all. How does Lavorante koing Folley prove that Moore was still a dangerous puncher?:huh
     
    mcvey, Oct 2, 2014
    mcvey, Oct 2, 2014
    #57
  13. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member

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    You align yourself with the chief bigot on here, imply that I am racist, then talk about double standards? That's funny ,or it would be if it wasn't so excruciatingly hypocritical.
     
    mcvey, Oct 2, 2014
    mcvey, Oct 2, 2014
    #58
  14. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Knocking out and permanently destroying the career of a 6'3" 2009lb contender proves Archie was still a dangerous puncher even at that stage. Lavorante knocking out Zora Foley a guy punchers like Henry Cooper, machen, Bonavena, deJohn, valdes all could not knock out proves Lavorante knew what he was doing at top level.
     
    choklab, Oct 2, 2014
    choklab, Oct 2, 2014
    #59
  15. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member

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    Louis was no longer a big puncher, his reflexes were shot he relied on the remnants of his jab to win fights, how many right hands,[his best punch ,]did he throw against MARCIANO?
    Here is the account of his fight against Bivins.

    "The official round-by-round scorecards, all in favor of Louis, were 7-3, 6-3-1, and 6-3-1. Louis's left jab scored most of his points as he only occasionally threw his right".

    When Louis came back after 2 years retirement he was no longer the Brown Bomber,he had struggled to beat Walcott in 1948 and was down on 2of the scorecards ,eventually finding a combo to end the fight.That was his last good fight.And that was three years before he fought Marciano!
    He knew he was finished, that's why he retired!
    In his comeback he scored just 3 stoppages in 9 fights ,one over Beshore was a cuts stoppage, one over Savold was against a veteran who was nearly as old as himself ,a man who would not have been considered a match for him in his prime, the other was over a journeyman ,Andy Walker 17-8-7.

    Louis could not make a dent in the limited Cesar Brion in 2 fights .


    Agramonte had been dropped 4 times for a 7th rd stoppage by Walcott taken out in 6rds by Pat Comiskey and been beaten inside the distance by two journeymen latin fighters.

    A month after facing Louis for the second time Agramonte met Clarence Henry who dropped him twice for 9 counts to take the win.
    Two months after going the distance with Louis for the second time Agramonte fought Bob Baker he was stopped in7rds
    A month later he faced Baker again and was dropped 8 times in that fight!
    In his next fight very moderate puncher Johnny williams had him down for a 7 count.

    Agramonte was hard to stop but he was on the floor more times than floor polish!
    Your desperate attempts to portray the 37years old Louis who faced Marciano as a still potent puncher are farcical.
    They fly in the face of Louis's own assessment of what he had left, the films we can watch ,and all the relevant stats we can view.
     
    mcvey, Oct 2, 2014
    mcvey, Oct 2, 2014
    #60
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