And we have the Twins Bummy Davis and Mendoza in the other corner, who say, because I question Marciano's one punch power I'm colour prejudiced.:---(
I provided quotes from Sam Langford that state he was never hit harder by anyone.I think that is significant. What have you ever provided here except for a bunch of lies? : Burns had jaundice. The Johnson v Johnson fight was stopped after 10rds to save Johnson's title . Burns broke Johnson's ribs. Jewey Smith was Jewish. Joe Louis benefitted from dishonest decisions from a crooked referee. Joe Louis fouled Buddy Baer and should have been dsq'd. Jack Johnson deliberately fouled Joe Jeannette because he was losing. Jack Johnson fouled Burns because he hit him in a clinch ,[prior argreement said clinches were fair game]. Joe Jeannette weighed 165lbs when he last fought Johnson. You've seen the Hague v Langford fight. Johnson and Smith fought an exhibition bout and Smith tko'd him. Johnson was a heavyweight when Choynski ko'd him That's a dozen lies off the top of my head that you have regularly repeated. Here's the biggest LIE ,and the reason I absolutely detest you, and dont try deny it because I found the post. You asked for my E mail address so we could arrange to meet for a fight. [ You asked for it to send me some info about the Johnson v Choynski fight.]
Moore knocked out far more noteworthy fighters in far more impressive fashion than Lyle. At the end isn't that how effective punching is supposed to be measured? Lyle's claim is knocking out Shavers and putting Foreman on ***** street. Now speaking of someone unproven against "severe" punchers. Young Big George comes to mind. Is falling all over the ring against Lyle his badge of proven durability? Who else did Lyle ever hurt that bad?
No I didn't, I said and I quote"Im not saying Moore was not a dangerous puncher at that stage". Neither did I say he was . You only take in what you want to don't you? You totally ignore questions and information you can't answer. Questions lke the fact that Louis wasnt stopping his opponents ,why? I provided film for you to watch of Louis v Brion, Beshore ,Savold and Agramonte, you don't even mention it. The fact that Agramonte was floored multiple times before and after Louis which totally dilutes his achievment of dropping him ONCE in two fights. The problem with you four Marciano nut huggers, Morbid,Mongoose,Bummy and yourself ,[I exclude the village idiot Mendoza who goes along with anyone who disagrees with me,] is you don't have ONE top puncher that Marciano met to pull out of your collective hats . Therefore you have to inflate the power of the men he did meet . McGrain has you pegged about right.:good
Since Moore had about double the fights at heavyweight that Lyle did his entire career , it would not be total surprise would it? Which are Moore's 5 most noteworthy heavyweight ko scalps, iyo?
-I didn't just say "more." -Baker, Lavorante,and Bivins x3 were his best. You could stick Whitehurst, Besmanoff, Lovell, or Satterfield in there as well. And I like the Davidson knockout alot. Lyle just has Shavers, Middleton, and Mathis. Unless you want to count the cut stoppage over Kirkman.
that's provocative. Louis was fighting good opponents. He had declined to a still capable level. A level where there was no shame in not stopping tough young bucks and gate keepers that most other fighters were not stopping either. Joe was not as good as he was. Sure he could stop them at his best. He was nit at his best. But it is not like everyone knocked out or stopped Brion and Agramonte and Louis could not. It was not like say Chuck Wepner getting stopped by Bugner but not by Liston. Or old Holmes going the full distance with jesse Ferguson. I accept that but knocking him down still shows power. No it is not that at all. It is just one interpretation of severe punching against another. does "monster punching" or "super heavyweight punching" do anymore than knock a guy out? He has me pegged about right? I don't think so. I don't think Rocky is anything he was not, I just don't rule him out or discredit what he was. I see some champions beat him. But He beat punchers. He did not fight in the modern era. Just because he did not does not mean he did not fight severe punchers.
Please tell me something I don't know. He is quite simply someone who if they were half as clever as they think they are, would be twice as clever as they actually are. An opinionated, arrogant fool.
No you said," far more." Let's take a look at these noteworthy ko's of Moore you cite. Bob Baker, a good fighter handicapped with bad hands. Baker had lost 2 of his last 3 fights, in his prior one he was outpointed by Clarence Henry,previous to that he beat journeyman Charley Doc Williams and before that he was bombed out in 1 round by 180lbs Bob Satterfield, Satterfield did it with a right and left. Going back a bit he had lost to Bill Gilliam and been kayoed by Clarence Henry in 8rds. Baker was inconsistant and his bad hands added to his troubles. . Baker was stopped on his feet against Moore never having been floored. Satterfield 33.5lbs the lighter man took him out in one round. with a right and left.:think Henry blasted him out with one left hook in 8rds. You choose him as Moore's best heavyweight ko win,[ it wasnt a ko but a ref's intervention and Baker hadn't even been down] but I'm feeling generous.:think Alejandro Lavorante was a green kid with one decent win on his record he had not faced any punchers before meeting Moore. Lavorante was stopped on his feet never having been down is this correct? No one knows how Lavorante would have coped with punchers because he only met one of any significance,so we have no idea how good his chin was ,or wasn't. Jimmy Bivins. In their first fight, 1947 Bivins retired between the 8th and 9th rds.Its down as a 9th rd tko. Bivins had been sparked out in 4 rounds by Ezzard Charles, 9 months earlier. Second fight ,1949 Moore kod Bivins in 8rds.[The Only KO Here BTW] Third fight ,1951Bivins retired between the 9th and 10th rounds because of an eye injury,[unable to see out of his left eye]. I asked you ," Which are Moore's 5 most noteworthy heavyweight ko scalps, iyo" You picked 3 men,one 3 times. =3scalps Only one of those five fights was a ko win for Moore.= Kos 1 Lavorante was never off his feet . Baker never off his feet. Bivins was kod ONCE in those three fights,the others being corner retirements. I've a hunch you might have been a little surprised by the dearth of ko wins against good heavyweights, Moore recorded:think Your statement Moore recorded far more noteworthy heavyweight ko scalps has been disproven imo. I would give Moore the slight nod, far more?:nono
Agree This is my understanding, and what I said. He's not a special heavyweight puncher, just a good one. Yes. Old Foreman wasn't a special puncher, just a good one. Even so, he very clearly hit harder than Moore, to me at least.
Yeah cos you're just as ******ed as him, I can imagine you sat on the same bus licking windows! :rofl
He doesn't. He isn't one because he isn't one, not because he doesn't appear on some list. And they all hit harder than Moore. Bruno is a fabulous example of a puncher capable of much harder punching than Moore. Moore is a much better boxer, so clever and capable that he might even BEAT the 245lb Bruno, but he's not that type of puncher. Marciano never fought a puncher like that. To knock out good fighters. To pass Rocky's chin among the hardest punching big heavyweights, absolutely not. This is not to say that Rocky couldn't survive a puncher like that - I don't think it's likely, but we don't know. So even by pretending these guys are better punchers than they are to artificially enhance the standing of your hero on the board, you do him no service.
A point I'd make relating to these discussions is that most good fighters don't make a habit of taking big punches full on the chin. It's rare, even among the most durable ones, that a fighter will persistently 'prove' his chin against HUGE punches. It's a sh!t way of fighting anyway, and won't produce a champion. I tend to take this maxim about big punchers literally : " He can knock out ANY MAN he hits cleanly"
He wasn't one. He just wasn't. It doesn't matter how many times you say it; he wasn't. No, that hasn't happened. Moore is an all time top 40 HW, very probably, but that has nothing to do with his punching ability, which was signficant, but not the best test a fighter can face, nor in the second class of testing punchers. I would argue he is not in the third. This is interesting, here is some punchers by tier, and how testing swallowing their hardest single punches would be. I'm staying away from Marciano, too controversial, people will flip out if he's not in tier I and will flip out if he's not. Tier I -------------------- Earnie Shavers, George Foreman, Sonny Liston, David Tua. Clearly Moore doesn't belong in the first grade, the most severe grade of puncher. Tier II --------------------- Joe Louis, Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis, Wladimir Klitschko, Frank Bruno. Clearly Moore doesn't belong in the second grade, the second severest grade of puncher. Tier III -------------------- Sam Langford, Sam McVey, Gerry Cooney, Razor Ruddock, Tim Witherspoon Clearly Moore doesn't belong in the third tier of punchers. Obviously there is some transience between the tier's, I also think you could swallow one of them up, but with some serious expansion, they would feel a good deal firmer. Moore wouldn't be "up there".