Who was the least skillfull champion

Mayorga is probably the least skilled lineal/unified champ I've seen in the modern era. Funny thing is, he could of been undisputed champ if the Spinks fight went his way, which I thought he narrowly won.

Next would have to be Valuev, I've never been so unimpressed by a HW champ barring Deontay Wilder.

 

First off kudos to Dagowop for making a realistic post about Marciano.

You are underrating both Marciano and Foreman.


Foreman is probably the best ring cutter the heavyweight division has ever seen, his defense was seriously underrated against boxers, he could take the jab from a slickster like nobody's business. Just ask Ali or Norton. Two of the best jabbers of that generation could never really get that punch going for a reason.

Marciano's defense on the inside is also seriously underrated. Yeah he could play the role of punch sponge when he needed to, but he needed to far less than most would think. He was always bobbing, weaving and playing with distance when he wasn't actively punching.

 

Dennis Andries
Jeff Harding

 

How am I underrating both Marciano and Foreman? Marciano didn't have much of a jab and didn't bother to master the finer points of scientific boxing such as defensive counterpunching. Couldn't fight on the back foot either, could you envision Marciano outboxing anyone? It's not a knock on Marciano at all. Everyone in this section knows how I regard him.

Foreman was outboxed in pretty much every fight he lost. Against which pure boxers did he ever show his ability to cut off the ring? Morrison practically walked around him and it was even noted that he never learned how to cut off the ring, although I can't remember the fight. It was one from the 90s. I mean, sure Foreman could cut off the ring and corner fighters that were used to coming forward but that's not very impressive. Any brawler or swarmer would flourish doing that. Foreman was pretty carefully guided most of his original career.

Marciano had good defense but when it came to punching he was pretty straight forward. Like I said, I'm not knocking Marciano but the skills of Louis, Walcott, Charles, and LaStarza were greater than his own. That's not saying he was unskilled at all.

 

Even if we assume that Godfrey was better than Carnera when they fought, it is not exactly a game changer.

Carnera improved a lot after that fight, while Godfrey got worse.

Furthermore, Godfrey was never really consistent enough to force the issue on a title shot, like say Wills was.

It was within the champion's discretion to refuse him.

 

Did Godfrey get worse or did Godfrey hit the height a black man was allowed to achieve sometime in the 20s?

He most certainly was a major force and consistently in HW title discussions since Dempsey was champion, there was a colorline and racism to deal with. Just because George lost a fight on paper doesn't mean he actually lost it or any reputation in boxing. Godfrey would be a name in title contention from the point where the story broke that he KO'd Dempsey in sparring forward.

I'm not sure what your point is with Wills. He was retired by the time Carnera was champion. Wills was a great fighters though and supports my overall point that in the 30s the best fighters were the colored champions not lineal.

Not sure how much better Primo got given the other guy I named beside Feab originally beat Primo after George not before while Godfrey himself defeated Gains before Gains fought Primo.

1930 Godfrey is cheated by a fix against Carnera. 1931 Godfrey defeats Gains for the colored championship. 1932 Primo is defeated by Gains. Maybe there are some circumstances I don't know about but I can't see how you can really claim either fighter improved. They seem to have stayed right where they were.

I'm not real sure what your last point was either, I did explicitly state I do not believe Carnera would be champion without a colorline. Champion's discretions included, I don't think Primo would have even fought for the title without the colorline.

Feab Smith and Larry Gains were the best HWs at the time.

 

Shinjo Takehara had a pretty limited game.

 

Yeah, and not only that, in the fight against Thunder he ham-acted to get a crucial "low blow" call from one of King's refs, a "technique" he would perfect against Kirk Johnson. This clown was such a fraud, a real disgrace to decent, hardworking fighters everywhere.

 

Leon Spinks had skills but no experience Troy Dorsey was low skilled, Iran Barkley, John Ruiz (great jab nothing else)those are a few if I can remember more I will list them

 

Mike McTigue was ranked fourth by the Ring when he was champ at light heavyweight after Tunney, Stribling, and Norfolk. Also, Freddie Mills fought like an orangutan on roller skates. No way he deserved to be champion with Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Joey Maxim, and Harold Johnson around.

Also, I have my doubts about some of the earliest champs. The footage I've seen of Philadelphia Jack O'Brien is just laughable.

 

Tua had definitely fast hands specially for a man of that size

 

I bring up Wills, as an example of a black fighter from the era, who was well managed.

Godfrey was undoubtedly a victim of bad management, but the fact remains that he did not force the issue.

Yes the champion's knew how dangerous he was, but while other fighters were ranked above him, it was within their discretion to pick alternative opponents.

Wills for contrast, put the champions in a position where he was the only logical contender.

Godfrey was probably on the slide by the time he fought Carnera, and by the time Carnera was champion, he was out of contention.

Carnera was an up and coming contender on the European circuit, when he lost to Gains and fougth Godfrey.

Still a good win for Gains, but he got better afterwards.

He got a new trainer, changed his style, and all of his best wins happened after these fights.

The Carnera Godfrey bout is a curious case.

The allegations of Carnera's extensive involvement in fixed fights came from his former manager Leon See, who curiously claimed that this fight was one of the ones that was on the level!

Personally I have never taken See's testimony very seriously.

It is none the less suspicious that Godfrey lost so many fights due to fouls.

Either he was a Gollotta level hot head, or he was using this tactic to throw fights.

I don't think that the timelines line up here.

I think that Godfrey and Gains were at their best significantly before Carnera lifted the title, and I think that it is questionable whether either was ever the best fighter in the world.

I would say that the high point of Godfrey's career was in 1928, when the title was vacant, and that the same would be true of Larry Gains.

As for how good they ever were, that is a subject worthy of a thread in itself!

 

I don't think Ruiz vs Thunder was a King fight. Though he would become a King fighter after Thunder.

 

Henry Akinwande