Who was the more skilled boxer, Sugar Ray Robinson or Sugar Ray Leonard?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Ironfox222, Mar 17, 2023.



Most skilled Sugar Ray

  1. Sugar Ray Robinson

    26 vote(s)
    66.7%
  2. Sugar Ray Leonard

    13 vote(s)
    33.3%
  1. techks

    techks ATG list Killah! Full Member

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    Imagine not seeing Leonard vs Hearns 1. I feel that way w barely any available film on Robinsons prime. He looks great overall at MW but u can tell he was not at his peak. Yes most if not all who've seen both at tip top shape go w SRR but that doesn't mean we would think exactly alike. I would love more footage of prime SRR available but unfortunately it seems lost in time. Gimmie those Gavilan fights at least lol.
     
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  2. robert ungurean

    robert ungurean Богдан Philadelphia Full Member

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    I give the edge to Robinson
     
  3. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    I dunno...First in boxing unlike non-combat sports a good offense is part of defense.
    But if you like SRL, then how do you account for the much better record of SRR?
    At least his frequency & longevity of fighting is much greater.
    But if you think at their peak he was better, why?

    They both fought great opponents, do you think boxing was not at a Golden Age in earlier times, & despite so many clubs & frequent fighting, guys were better @ 3 years later?
    Even though they fought at @ the same in ring weights?

    Here is some basic info about SRR (I add that he falsified his age as 16 when really 14, so his amateur record is even more impressive...

    Competed from 1940 to 1965. He was inducted into the
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    in 1990.
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    He is often regarded as the greatest boxer of all time,
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    .
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    Robinson was a dominant amateur, but his exact amateur record is not known. It is usually listed as 85–0 with 69 knockouts, 40 in the first round. However it has been reported he lost to
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    and Patsy Pesca as a teenager under his given name, Walker Smith Jr. He turned professional in 1940 at the age of 19 and by 1951 had a professional record of 129–1–2 with 85 knockouts. From 1943 to 1951 Robinson went on a 91-fight
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    , the third-longest in professional boxing history.
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    Robinson held the world welterweight title from 1946 to 1951, and won the world middleweight title in the latter year. He retired in 1952, only to come back two-and-a-half years later and regain the middleweight title in 1955.

    He then became the first boxer in history to win a divisional world championship five times (a feat he accomplished by defeating
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    in 1958 to regain the middleweight championship). Robinson was named "fighter of the year" twice: first for his performances in 1942, then nine years and over 90 fights later, for his efforts in 1951. Historian
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    ranked Robinson as the greatest fighter of all time and in 2002, Robinson was also ranked number one on
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    magazine's list of "80 Best Fighters of the Last 80 Years".
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    As of November 2021,
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    ranks Robinson as the greatest boxer, pound-for-pound, of all time.
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    He was named the best boxer of all time, pound for pound, by the International Boxing Research Organization (IBRO) in both of its all-time ratings, in 2006 and 2019.
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    Now some say SRL was a better technician.
    However does being unorthodox like Ali mean he is not as good as a more conventional fighter?
    Unless there is a flaw like Ali having trouble with counter-punching jabbers, can we fairly say the more "polished" executors must be better?
    To make the case here, again from Wikipedia...

    Boxing style
    Rhythm is everything in boxing. Every move you make starts with your heart, and that's in rhythm or you're in trouble.


    Robinson was the modern definition of a boxer puncher. He was able to fight almost any style: he could come out one round
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    , the next counterpunching, and the next fighting on the outside flicking his jab. Robinson would use his formless style to exploit his opponents' weaknesses. He also possessed great speed and precision. He fought in a very conventional way with a firm jab, but threw hooks and uppercuts in flurries in an unconventional way.
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    He possessed tremendous versatility—according to boxing analyst
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    , "Robinson could deliver a knockout blow going backward."
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    Robinson was efficient with both hands, and he displayed a variety of effective punches—according to a
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    article in 1951, "Robinson's repertoire, thrown with equal speed and power by either hand, includes every standard punch from a
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    to a
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    —and a few he makes up on the spur of the moment."
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    Robinson commented that once a fighter has trained to a certain level, their techniques and responses become almost reflexive. "You don't think. It's all instinct. If you stop to think, you're gone."
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    SRR at his peak was 129-1-1 AND only lost to a man who outweighed him by 16 lbs. LaMotta-who he beat the other 5 times.​
    Then he went back & forth for the MW title many times...
    Do you think later but still at most '80's fighters were significantly better, & thus SRR was better overall?
    I am open to an argument that SRL was better, but am having a hard time seeing the rationale.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2023
  4. James Page

    James Page Active Member banned Full Member

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    Just going off the film thats.available, I'm going to pick Leonard. At least as the more versatile fighter.

    He could slug it out, something I'm sure Robinson could do as well, I just haven't seen it in anything I've come across online.

    I actually thought Leonard's first fight with Duran was very close, hardly anything dominant by Duran.

    I will give Robinson an edge in hand speed/combos, but not by a huge margin. Leonard could certainly hold his own by comparison.

    I don't know how often Robinsom was truly hurt or stunned, I just know he quit on his stool against Max and that la motta had him down once.

    But I've seen Leonard stunned and battered a few times before only to fight through it, so I'll give him edge there.

    I'll also give Leonard the edge in level of competition, based on the ratio of fights
     
  5. Melankomas

    Melankomas Prime Jeffries would demolish a grizzly in 2 Full Member

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    Leonard has better defense and footwork (barely edges Robinson here) but SRR has better offense and killer instinct.
     
  6. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I don't think quit on his stool is a fair or sufficient summary. SRR's corner pulled their delirious and exhausted fighter, who was ahead on the scorecards, after the 13th vs Joey Maxim in 105F heat. The ref had to be changed after 10.

    SRR, who weighed in at 159lbs for this fight, reportedly lost 16lbs during the fight, meaning, if true, that he was a 143lbs boxer fighting for the LHW world title by the end of the fight.

    SRR had a pretty proven chin, too, imo.
     
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  7. James Page

    James Page Active Member banned Full Member

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    Well, another reason I would give an edge to Leonard. His IQ was too high to just go out there and empty the tanks against a bigger, stronger guy, especially when he had speed and mobility on his side.
    Not going to second guess Ray Robinson, but if he was as great as advertised, what was the point of allowing a slower, heavier fighter to smother him all night?
    Ray Ray slugged when he had to, boxed when he had to, and moved when he had to. I see Ray having a better game plan and better success against a guy like Maxim. He already showed he could change styles and tactics from fight to fight, or even within a fight.
    Ray Leonard is one of the greatest that ever lived
     
  8. dinovelvet

    dinovelvet Antifanboi Full Member

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    Ray Robinson could only move clockwise direction.

    Leonard could move in every direction around the ring. I vote Sugar Ray Leonard
     
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  9. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    In which rounds do you feel SRR allowed Maxim to smoother him?
     
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  10. James Page

    James Page Active Member banned Full Member

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    The whole fight? Isn't that what the excuse makers always say? Maxim was too big and leaning all over Robinson, sapping his energy?
    Otherwise SRR would have comfortably outboxed him....

    Guess I'll have to watch again when I get home to give you a proper round by round breakdown, but this is certainly the common narrative of the fight
     
  11. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Please don't do so on my account.

    It was 105F in the ring. The same for both fighters, but is pointing out that the heat had a bigger impact on the 157.5bs man fighting the natural LHW than vice versa, an excuse or a relevant observation? SRR reportedly lost 16lbs during the fight relative to 9lbs for Maxim. If true he started the fight 15.5lbs lighter and ended it 22.5lbs lighter.

    I don't think SRR fought a reckless fight or demonstrated IQ as poor as SRL's when he was provoked into fighting Duran's fight in their 1st contest.

    SRR began his career 129-1-2. SRL went 36-3-1 in his entire career. Even if we discount his last 2 fights, when tbf he was shot, SRL still lost the same amount of fights in his first 38 fights as SRR in his first 132. This despite 132 chances to lose being substantialy more than 38, and also in these 132 x fights SRR had many more fights against great boxers and being the only one of the 2 with multiple wins over ATGs who outweighed him by around 15lbs. SRR's loss was to a man 16lbs heavier, who he also beat 5 times, SRL's to a naturally smaller man who he also beat twice.

    Honestly, as great as SRL was, SRR had the greater career and its not close.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2023
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  12. James Page

    James Page Active Member banned Full Member

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    Sure. Which fighters did Robinson beat who were better than Duran?
    Who did he KO that was better than Hearns?
    And who did he move up in weight to defeat that was better than Hagler?
    He had all those hundreds of fights you me mentioned, surely you must be able to find 3 victories better than the opponents I just mentioned.
     
  13. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Kid Gavilan is a greater WW than Duran, and by quite a distance. SRR was 2-0 vs Galivan at WW. SRL was 1-1 vs Duran at WW.

    SRR stopped LaMotta at MW. Its difficult to articulate the extent to which LaMotta is more durable than WW Hearns.

    I rank Hagler above LaMotta at MW. But SRR has clean wins amongst his 5 over LaMotta, including when he has outweighed by c.15lbs and LaMotta was prime. SRL has 1 debatable win over a faded Hagler (tbf, Ray was inactive too) when they weighed about the same.

    If you want, I'll list their top 30 or so wins and we will compare. The top 3-5 will be closeish, by the time we get to wins 10-30, SRR will pull ahead by quite a margin.
     
  14. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    You more than capably gave examples of some great WW wins by SRR later, but the post above sums up how I feel.
    If he fought in a much more primitive era or say was a HW who was the size of & largely fought modern day rehydrated LHW types, I could say his Sublime record is deceptive, & the modern guy may well be better.

    But Robinson was superb against great competition that often outsized him.
    He fought so much more often, frequently, & longer than Leonard.
    If the latter fought on that schedule & similar opposition he would almost certainly lose more often.

    Also you cannot realistically argue that SRL was more skilled, but SRR was just more physically dominant-like with freakish power & chin.
    They both were highly skilled & athletic, but neither had one freakish outlier natural ability that mostly dictated their success.

    I'll add again that a great offense in boxing in part can constitute defensive virtue.

    EDIT: the point about him fighting larger men BUT being at least as big as SRL-who never did this in a meaningful way, cherry-picking a starved down Lalonde when they both were the same size in the ring is not at all similar.
    Routinely beating larger World Class fighters-without say a Wilder or Julian Jackson freakish equalizer...

    Proves to me it almost has to be that he is more skilled than even Leonard.

    We also cannot say that while SRR had an easily superior career, SRL was better at his peak.
    He may have deserved an L against Hearns.
    He lost against Duran.
    The fight against Hagler? Sure much accolades to him for winning when long inactive & moving up in weight!
    But he waited until Hagler was a reduced fighter, & the fight was close & controversial.

    Especially when we do not have footage of SRR at his best-although he still looks absolutely great...
    I have a hard time seeing how so many folks choose SRL.
    I wonder how much it is from favoring later fighters-like many do the opposite-

    And really do not understand how Truly Great SRR was.
    Still likely the greatest candidate for P4P fighter ever.
    If you combine peak, whole career/longevity, competition fought...

    And he did not achieve it without being supremely skilled.
     
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