Who was the more stylistic poison for Ali? Ken Norton or Joe Frazier.

Norton could be argued to have won all three fights but Frazier had the most dominant performance in FOTC.

I'd say if the fight kept on going until we had a winner standing I can see Ali outlasting Norton but not outlasting Frazier.

 

I agree with all this except Norton arguably winning all three fights. Their is no way, no how anyone can give that fight to Norton without an agenda.

 

Frazier easily. I believe prime Frazier bears any version of Ali, and think a pressure fighter would cause Ali more trouble (hence, my unpopular pick of Marciano over Ali as well). With Norton, I think he was the right guy in the right place at the right time…but I wouldn’t pick him over a prime Ali

 

I'm going to disagree the first fight was a CLEAR Norton victory. It was somewhat close, (definitely closer than TFOTC) and even Norton himself conceded it could've gone either way.

I also disagree scoring the third fight for Ali is a stretch, when you only have Norton up by one point, and said yourself you even scored it for Ali once.

 

As we all know Ali described Thrilla In Manilla, as like being in the near room to death.

Ali took way more punishment against Frazier, than he did against Norton. But Norton had a more "annoying/frustrating" style for Ali.

But put it this way, if Ali had a choice to go back in time. And fight against Norton or Fraizer again, would he rather an annoying tactical chess match vs Norton ? Or a brutal war against Fraizer which he described was like near death ?

I think the answer to them questions is pretty obvious.

 

I think the third fight is misunderstood. If you won a round it doesn't matter if you won by an inch or a mile. Ali knew he needed to get to eight and he did.

 

Ali dominated him for four out of 6 rounds of the 2nd fight, and didn't need to resort to holding like he did against Frazier. Norton won ONE out of three, and it was a split decision (one that Norton himself said could've gone either way and that Futch and Frazier scored a draw) against a very out of shape Ali. Frazier beat one of the best versions of Ali, nearly stopped him on two occasions, and dropped him on his ass. When Frazier beat Ali, he didn't struggle nearly as much as Norton did, despite facing a much better version.

 

They did a special on CBS where they showed the third fight and had guests score it. Joe Frazier had it 8-7 Norton. That shows how close it was. As an aside in my biased opinion only Joe Frazier of all boxers gives the best iteration of Muhammad Ali problems.

 

Frazier was a more skilled fighter but Norton still gave Ali a harder time.

 

I personally would also include Ali's condition for the Frazier match. I think he was basically 212 lb a piece for those fights. Dancing weight...as Ali liked to say. On the Carson show, Ali and Norton did an informal weigh in just prior to their rematch. Ali looked almost as trim and taut as he did in the 1960s. Really tremendous shape.

After those fights, Ali came in at 216 1/2 lb in Zaire - which makes me think that Ali wasn't looking so much to dance against Foreman, at least not to the degree he claimed before deciding to weigh anchor and intermittently play the rope dope, while also firing sharp, hard counters at Foreman's head. Ali looked harder and more solid for that fight - and I think it was borne out by the extra oomph in his shots.

As per their actual engagements over 3 fights in the 1970s, I'd probably also say that Norton's style was the most poisonous. Musing on how prime Ali would've fared against prime versions of Frazier and Norton. I would choose Ali beating both but out of Joe and Ken, I think Joe might lose that bit more ground again against a more mobile Ali, while Kenny wouldn't lose quite as much. . At least from Ken and Joe's perspective, I'd prefer Ken's style because while it held great potential for victory of Ali, it didn't entail the heavy degree of punishment that Joe's style would always invite against Ali.

 

Yeah but on the other hand, the same rings true vice versa. Norton never really hurt Ali in three bouts, while Ali was put on his has, nearly knocked out on numerous occasions, and said facing Frazier was the closest he'd come to death.

 

Sure, but I think the question was the best style to beat Ali - so in giving Ken that and his absorbing much lesser punishment than Joe, , it’s still possible to say at the same time that Joe inflicted heavier punishment on Ali overall - but Ken did hurt Ali significantly more than a few times IMO.

For one, do you remember the single body shot that doubled Ali over in the rubber match? - that was an absolute beaut. There was also a right hand that Ken landed on Ali on the bell in their rematch I think, and it froze Ali on the post and he didn’t appear to have his full legs when he walked back to his corner. Quite a few other moments to cite but those jumped up for me just now.

Then again, the question could be framed another way - who would you rather fight - Joe or Ken? They’re both going to beat the sh*t out of me and defeat me. - BUT Joe just might beat the literal life out of me. Frazier took no prisoners. Just let cogitate on that one…..forever. LOL.

EDIT: Just re-read myself - I meant Norton, more than a few times, hurt Ali significantly - not that Ken hurt Ali more than Joe did - as Swag already said - Ali said it was the closest thing to death after he fought Smok’n’ Joe - and Ali looked more spent and hurt than any other fight in his viable years.

 

Stylistically Norton posed the more problems.

Physically Frazier took a far greater toll on Ali.