Who were the best ten heavyweights during Johnson’s title reign from 1909-1915?

In this regard, i do agree. His reign is not one of the 4 best (unless you count his time as coloured champion). But it is still a good reign.

 

I am not sure who the 8 to 10 fighters we are talking about here, but how many of the top 8 to 10 fighters of this period has johnson not either defeated, or defeated the man who defeated them.

All of them except Willard?

Langford, Mcvey, Jeanette, Wills (he defeated Langford who beat Jeanette at this time), Burns, Jeffries, Anyone else?

Not to mention other guys, who you dont seem to rate, but were undoubtedly the best contenders like Palzer, Morris, Moran, etc.

He may not have done it all as a champion, but Johnson defeated more of his top contenders or people who defeated his top contenders than any other champion with the possible (and it is only possible) exception of Muhammed Ali and Joe Louis.

 

And all this time I though Rocky Marciano clean out his era better than Jack Johnson.

 

The maker of this thread states that Johnson avoided the best 8 or 9 challengers during his title reign, these of course are the challengers HE has selected.
Let us look at a couple of them.
Jack Dillon his heavyweight resume during Johnson's reign is as follows
1914 drew with a 35 year old Jim Flynn,this was his debut against heavyweights.
1914 w tko 10 rds over Jack Lester 25-12-4
1914 w 12 dec over Al Norton who was 1-0-1
1914 w10 dec over Jim Flynn
1915 w10 dec over Porky Flynn
1915 w 10 dec over Tom McCarty 6-1-2
1915 w 10 dec over GunBoat Smith, this was on 16th of March,[Johnson lost his title to Willard on the 4th of April].

Seven fights , one draw and ,one win over a badly faded Jim Flynn who was 35 years old ,a win over an also ran[ Lester],a win over Norton ,who was having his second fight,and a NWS over trial horse Porky Flynn and another over novice Tom McCarty 6-1-2.
Dillon's best win ,over a heavyweight during Johnsons's reign was over GunBoat Smth, but this was on the 16th of March 1915,only 19 days before Johnson was dethroned.

Harry Wills,[ a one time sparring partner for Johnson ,[whom he "let go "because he could not give him enough work.]
1912 kod by Johnson's sparring partner Kid Cotton in 2rds.
1913 drew wth Jeff Clark
1913 drew with Joe Jeannette
1914 won 10rds dec from Sam Langford
1914 drew with Jeannette
1914 kod Mexican Petre Everett in 2rds Everett was 39
1914 kod by Langford


Should Johnson have met either of them whilst he was champion,and ,if he had, would it have made any difference to his standing?

 

Rocky cleaned his era, and did so well. But not as well Johnson, especially in terms of quantity. Rocky missed more top fighters than Jack, although he did clearly beat the tops of the tree, though and did do a far more thorough cleanout than he is usually given credit for.

 

There is no way that Harry Wills deserved a title shot, he was KOd by Langford. Although he may have stood in line with others before this, and certainly after it. at some point. Although i wonder if it is telling that Harry himself never wanted a part of Johnson despite the chance to get easy money from an aged huge name?

Dillon simply did not deserve a title shot ahead of the names that did. Given his size and the perception that he was not yet a valid challenger, you dont really deserve a shot on the back of a Jim Flynn victory. Otherwise, we would have seen Al Kaufman get a title shot...Oh we did. Or maybe it was his wins over Dan Flynn, who also lost to title challengers Victor McLaglen and Stanley Ketchell. Is it agreedthat both of these also demanded title shots like Dillon? Or was Ketchell simply too small and unproven at the weight?

 

I think everyone is aware why you made this thread ,unfortunately,[for you,] it hasnt gone according to plan.
Posters know that Johnson not only cleaned out the division before becoming champ, he had to wait until he was 30 before he got his chance at the title.


Best 5 ,or best 8 or 9 which is it ?
I took two off your list and showed that their credentials as top heavyweights were shaky to say the least.

Maybe I'll look at a couple more.

 

Lets address your points .
Choynski ,when Johnson met Choynski he was not much more than a novice, he also weighed around the light heavyweight limit at the time.
The Hart fight was a disputed and controversial win for Hart.
Who, apart from McVey were teenagers when they fought Johnson?
McVey was nearly 20 when he had his third and last fight with Johnson, he had allready beaten Fred Russell, Denver Ed Martin ,and Kid Carter.

Mcvey got the most emphatic beat down of their three fights and was stopped in the 20th rd.
Langford was 156lbs true ,but Johnson was 185lbs both were short of their physical primes,and Langford was no novice he had 50 fights under his belt,considerably more than Johnson.
Johnson beat the **** out of Langford knocking him down twice and breaking his nose.he gave him what Langford later described as ,"the worst beating I ever took".
Jeannette was 27 years old when he last lost to Johnson,Jeannette had allready beaten Black Bill a couple of times and ,kod a 47 fight Langford.
Johnson proved beyond all doubt he was Jeannette's master in their series despite what you have tried to assert previously.
Frank Childs
Sandy Ferguson
Black Bill
Denver Ed Martin
Fred Russell
George Gardner
Joe Butler
Joe Kennedy
Klondike
Were neither teenagers,nor novices,
Your argument does not stand scrutiny.

 

I am not too sure of what Joe Jeanettes record was for the first johnson meeting, but by the time that he was outclassed in a 3 rounder by Johnson in New York, it seems that he was considered "no slouch of a boxer" or fighter. Although, to be fair, Joe was just a middleweight apparently, at this time.

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...e+&y=7&x=17&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=11


And it seems that his win over Pat O Rourke was not a win against or by a total novice either, as both O Rourke and and Jeanette were big hitters and clever men.

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...te+&y=7&x=17&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=5

And with regards to the Teenage McVey, both he and johnson were considered promising. In fact, McVey had just beaten the equally promising by the sounds of things, 6 ft 6 240lb skilled superheavyweight Toothpick Kelly. Definitely not an easy fight for Johnson.

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...vey&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=11

 

Johnson was 21 when he met Klondike the first time , he later drew over 20 rds with him ,and stopped him in their last fight.
Johnson lacked heart ,? Thats your spin on things.
Your interpretation again regarding the Jeannette dsq win is just that ,your interpretation.Johnson beat Jeannette 4 times ,drew with him twice and, lost that 1 fight on a dsq,why would he need to purposely foul out to a man he was master of?
Before losing to Hart in 1905[which was debatable],Johnson had beaten.
Sandy Ferguson
Frank Childs x2
Denver Ed Martin
George Gardner
Sam McVey x3
Joe Butler
Black Bill
Fred Russell
Klondike
Joe Kennedy

After the loss to Hart , leading up to his title shot with Burns , Johnson beat the following top liners.
Jim Jeffords
Black Bill
Joe Jeannette x4
Jack Munroe
Sandy Ferguson
Young Peter Jackson
Sam Langford
Bill Lang
Peter Felix
Bob Fitzsimmons
Jim Flynn
Ben Taylor

From 1905 till 1908 Johnson had 29 fights losing only 1, the dsq to Jeannette, a man he whipped 4 times.
Everyone, except you, would agree that is cleaning out the division.

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrFlPu232so&feature=related[/ame]