There has been a lot of talk on this forum recently about certain boxers pioneering modern boxing methods. Here I ask for examples but I also ask that you justify them. Why do you think that the boxer in question was a pioneer? Personaly I have recently been looking into which fighters were seen as pioneers in their day. I have some names but I will wait to hear yours before I suggest them.
I'll get the ball rolling with Corbett. A big man who knew how to move he also abandoned the guard as crucial to defence, moving and slipping punches. He also used "straight-arm" punches in his offense. Basically I would argue that he was the first big man who knew how to not get hit, and for me, even though it could be argued that Jackson was actually the more scientific puncher, that makes Corbett a proper pioneer.
While the rest of your post is verry solid I doubt this observation. There has been an interest in "not getting hit" among boxers since the sport was born.
Hmmmm. Yeah, OK, but an interest and being able to achieve it are surely a bit different? Thing is, there are stories in boxing of guys "taking a knee" and feigning injury to avoid getting hit, specially in the days when this "only" resulted in the end of the round as opposed to dropping points...Corbett could get out of the way, even counterpunch, perhaps , whilst doing so - he revolutionised the manner rather than the desire.
Corbett's defense is essentially textbook 1880's/1890's stuff. I wouldn't say that it was especially revolutionary--and people have been avoiding punches for ages.
I don't know of any. I tend to doubt that there are many legendary figures who are responsible for innovations. Often, they may be the first to use them on a wide scale, but I suspect that their abilities stem from the invention of someone else--an anonymous coach, sparring partner, or trainer. Corbett's left long-range hook against Courtney seems like a conventional (for the time) left hand swing a la Donovan.
Very interesting. Here are a short list of my possible misconceptions about Corbett. 1) - His defence was comprised of movement and slipping to a greater extent than his peers (the other big men of the era). Those guys tended towards a defense comprised of guarding against punches, positioning in the clinches they tended to initiate to avoid taking punches at range. 2) - He introduced to the big guys the notion of jab as something other than a range-finder. 3) - He was one of the first genuine counterpunchers. 4) - He hit straighter 5) - He shortened up the hook. Disabuse me! Here's a wee bit from the San Francisco Evening Post on a young Corbett: Corbett's defece was beautiful. He is one of the cleverest with both hands and legs that has been seen in this town. He has a wonderful way of getting back from a drive or counter. Who would these guys have seen in the same sort of class defencivley? Mace maybe? And Corbett himself on his hand problem: It is not as bad for me. I hit straighter and have been working on hitting straighter.
1. Edwards ducked much as Corbett did (from the waist, as Corbett did) in his manual, although he didn't go to the left as much when doing so. In most manuals, they recommend moving the head and body to one side to avoid a punch. 2. The jab wasn't a range finder at all--quite the opposite. It was much more powerful than the modern jab, and was closest to a modern fencing lunge. 3. Counterpunching (and its ugly younger brother feinting) was more important in early boxing than in modern boxing, since punches counted for more and combination punching was de-emphasized. 4. Corbett's era coincided with an era of round punching. In fact, for almost a century from 1800 onward round punches were never mentioned in any of the manuals I've seen. Any blows that were not straight as an arrow were considered unscientific (even the uppercut was "unscientific", but was considered too useful to discard anyway). The widening stance and adaptation to gloves caused "rounding blows" to become more and more relied upon as the late 19th century rolled on. 5. Couldn't tell you, since it's impossible to tell how much Donovan's generation "wound up" their rounding blows. Corbett's hook didn't seem much different from his predecessors, except that it may have been used at slightly closer range. Corbett may have been a defensive wizard, but he was using the same techniques that two or three generations before him used...much like Mayweather or Toney.
This is very interesting to me as I had Corbett down as a slider rather than a ducker. That's firmly on board. These two are counter-intuative for me...the jab was a lunge but counter-punching was at a premium...seems very much like "asking for it". So unless i've misunderstood, you see Corbett's straightening up of punches as something that was "occuring" rather than pioneered - and that any sense of Corbett's driving the change was down more to his status than any real inovation? In isolation or as part of a wider movement? If it was the case that he did it in isolation would you consider him a pioneer in this area? Was there not a sense in which Corbett was seen as "odd" in terms of his style early on? If so, why do you think this was?