Who wins: Tommy Hearns Vs Henry armstrong at 147?

This pre- supposes that Armstrong hit harder than Leonard , I don't think he did.

 

I for one favour better era fighters over lesser era's, but disparity in size here I believe is too much... keep in mind Tommy in Hanks day would have been a middle cum L-HW, he NEVER would have seen WW and he would have been carrying a bit more natural weight from the onset, not having months between fights to even consider WW.

Tommy too big, just like the S-HWs of today, completely different animals.

 

I agree. He was obviously a great offensive force but Hearns was better and much stronger at 154. I believe Hearns was a little vunerable at `47 if you could get him into the mid to late rounds. Easier said than done. Im talking about on the elite level.

With that said I dont think Armstrong has an answer for that big jab of Tommy Hearns. It would bust up his eyes. Walking forward into that jab is not a good thing. The right hand behind would stop almost anyone at `47 in their tracks.

Hearns TKO 7th

 

How do you work this out ?
A young Hearns made the welterweight limit up until 1981, he started out fighting once or twice a month, he had 13 fights in his first years as a professional, no problem making WW. He was naturally skinny, very skinny, he'd fought at 132 pounds as an eighteen year-old amateur.

 

I do not think this is a bad comparison.

Hagler was not a notably strong middle. He rarely pushed and shoved. He was a boxer puncher. He could push and shove, Mugabi and Hearns, but his game was much more nuiasanced than a Lamotta type fighter.

However, when he fought Hearns, as I mentioned earlier, he went right at him with loads of aggression. Hagler, like Henry, was shorter, not as fast, nor did he hit as hard as Hearns. But, he took a great punch, hit hard enough to hurt Hearns and, never stopped coming forward. On those terms, I am not sure why I cannot make the comparision. 181 fights and KO'ed only twice. This mans chin maybe greater than Haglers, especially when you considered moved up and ruled a division and his fighting style.

His power vs Leonard's?

When Armstrong won the welterweight title he two years he defended successfully 20 times with 14 KO's. At the same time he drew with Ceferino Garcia whom he was banging against ropes at will. I don't think he even weighed over 142 pounds. 101KO's of 152 wins. This man hit freakin harder than Sugar Ray Leonard. P4P and shot for shot.

Armstrong hit up there with Robinson and Fitzsimmons.

Please make your argument.

 

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His power vs Leonard's?

When Armstrong won the welterweight title he two years he defended successfully 20 times with 14 KO's. At the same time he drew with Ceferino Garcia whom he was banging against ropes at will. I don't think he even weighed over 142 pounds. 101KO's of 152 wins. This man hit freakin harder than Sugar Ray Leonard. P4P and shot for shot.

Armstrong hit up there with Robinson and Fitzsimmons.

Please make your argument.

 

Armstrong was an attrition puncher who wore you down with non stop aggression, and volume punching, as did Joe Frazier.

You set a lot of store by stats.
Going into the FOTC Frazier had the best ko% of any heavyweight champ 88.5% or 25kos in 31 fights.

No one puts Frazier in the top flight as a puncher along with Liston, Foreman ,Louis etc.

Armstrong defended the welter title 21 times not 20, he scored only five knockouts . with 9 tk0s.


Four of those challengers fought him twice despite being stopped in their first encounter. This suggests 2 things, padding , and a lack of top challengers.


The lack of top challengers is hard to explain given that Burley, Williams ,Mamakos, and Cocoa Kid were ranked during Armstrong's reign , but he never defended against any of them.


Preferring to beat up unranked Paul Junior x2, Al Manfredo x2.Bobby Pacho x2[Pacho was briefly ranked in1934,no6] Jimmy Garrison x2. Thats 8 stoppages of unranked opponents right there. Ralph Zannelli was ranked in37 [no10] and 43,[no 5] but not when he fought Armstrong.

Like wise show me when the following title challengers to Armstrong were ever rated?

Furr
Scott
Day
Feldman
Fontaine
Montanez.

The conclusion I have to arrive at is that as welterweight champ Armstrong feasted on largely unranked challengers, whilst missing out defending against ranked men such as Burley, Mamakos,Kid, Wiliams.

How many stoppages would Armstrong have managed over these much sterner tests?

In conclusion Armstong was not a one punch ko artist like SRR and Fitz who often kod men for several minutes and to compare him with them based on his record over unranked fighters is illogical.

While not a puncher like SRR and Fitz, Leonard still knocked men out , and sometimes with one punch , when did Armstrong ever do that?

Some more stats for you ,since you seem to like them.

Armstrongs ko % is 55,8%
Leonard's ko % is 62.5%/

That is my argument.

 

Henry Armstrong Welterweight defenses: (I missed someone please correct me. KO's in

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1. Barney Ross W15
2. Lou Ambers W15
3. Ceferino Garica W15

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5. Baby Arizmendi W15

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9. Jimmy Garrison W10

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14. Ceferino Garcia D10

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To start with Ross, Ambers and Jenkins were not welter title defences . Neither was the second Garcia fight .

The pattern that is apparent with that list is that Armstrong stopped the unranked guys ,but went the distance with the top boys.

I don't say Leonard would have stopped Burley, Kid ,or Williams ,I do say he would have been favourite to stop all the unranked men that Armstrong beat at 147lbs.

Leonard at welter stopped all his challengers except Duran first time,and they were rated contenders for the most part, Armstrong's were not.

Ross was finished when Armstrong got him.


The fact that Armstrong was fighting two weight classes over his natural division only emphasises my point.

We are judging his power at 147lbs,and for that to have any practical use it must be against rated opposition.
.
Leonard knocked down and stopped a lhvyweight.

For example Mac Foster kod his first 24 opponents , but then took a jump in class he had a further 12 fights scoring 6 stoppages and they were either second-raters or past it veterans. Lamar Clark did the same astoppage streak of 42 , but then only one in his last 4.

What would Leonard's figures have been if he had fought those guys that Armstrong mixed it with.

Armstrong has 8 stoppages over 4 men! That is padding.

Something you should factor in when saying Armstrong was fighting above his natural weight class.
Ambers
Jenkins
Scott
Day
Montanez
Ghnouly

Were all natural Lightweights

Pacho and Joyce jnr Welters

Arizmendi a Feather weight.
Fontaine a Feather and Lightweight
Thats 10 of his challengers that were not even real welters


Armstrong's opposition at welter is only so -so that is fact.

P .S.
I don't think you worked hard enough!

 

Ok. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I can always work harder.

Thank you.

 

No problem, nice debating with you.:hi:

 

Same here.

I did some interesting research and learned a few things from you and from my own research in the process. I will be thinking more about Armstrong's resume and who and why he ducked? I will even reevaluate his power...although that will be a harder reasessment.

Thanks again.

 

I wouldn't be sure Armstrong ducked those guys , three of them were black it was probably financial considerations , though they do happen to be his 3 best challengers imo.

I learnt something too that many of his title challengers at welter were .
1. Not rated.
2. Not really welters.

 

There was a lot of pressure on Henry Armstrong from the boxing commissions to fight one of the top three contenders. You could say he was ducking. Eventually he fought Zivic and got beat.

In his defence, some of those 'easy' challengers he defended against he did so on an extreme schedule.
FIVE fights in three weeks in October 1939 alone.

 

Yes Mead his manager set him an insane schedule, he treated him like a piece of meat.