who would beat 36 yr old ali at the 8 fight stage of their career?

i think the last 2 norton fights could have gone either way but shavers was well earned. in the jimmy young fight, NO ONE won

 

patterson is a good pick if he had the poundage necessary. this is way tougher than i thought. i think ali himself, at that stage in his career (alonzo johnson/archie moore era) would have destroyed him

 

He was never adverse to giving away body shots, but he sustained repeated concussive, knee buckling, amnesia inducing head trauma against Shavers, and I don't think his reflexes and hand-eye coordination ever looked right again.

If we accept issboxWreck's account of his career as accurate, then Bonavena stopped McNeeley just six fights into his professional career, following that by shutting out Dick Wipperman. Under Goldman's guidance, he might have had the strategy, strength and stamina necessary to upset the Ali of February 1978. (Who knows? If Ringo was still alive and well in reality, he might have lifted the title from Muhammad in a rematch before Leon could get to him.)

Joe Frazier also beat the aforementioned Wipperman in his sixth outing, stopping him in five, but Joe wouldn't go much beyond that distance until his own rude introduction to Bonavena (by which time Ringo had beaten Peralta over 12). Without a protracted battle of attrition under his belt, I have my doubts that he'd be ready for 15 rounds with a master of head games, smoke and mirrors.

Lyle's eighth win was a ten round decision over Ramos, and he'd earlier taken the measure of a fine boxer in Leroy Caldwell. At 30, he had size, strength, intelligence and maturity.

Marvis Frazier outscored amateur conqueror Broad (an occasion for which the Axe had actually gotten himself under 230 pounds) and Bugner for his ninth and tenth wins (making him a better qualified opponent for Holmes than Leon had been for Ali), and this was a situation where Papa Joe's advice may have paid dividends.

Eight fights in, Ten Hoff outscored veteran Neusel for the German Title over 12. He would have had height and reach advantages over Ali, that crucial experience of having boxed a longer distance at that early stage of development, and he was something of a prodigy.

Seven fights in, Louis got a rugged ten rounder with Wiater under his belt. He would have been far better prepared after going his first eight rounds with Ramage, but maybe he had enough for the faded Ali after Wiater.

Corbett's ninth win was his 27 round epic over Choynski. Combine that experience with his speed, skills and brains, and I wouldn't put money on Ali to win. (That's knowing what we know now about the Ali of Spinks I, not what we thought we knew before that upset.)

Folley and Machen both developed rapidly, and may well have had the smarts to exploit Ali's declining abilities.

Jeffries had already drawn over 20 rounds with Choynski and Ruhlin before he reached the eight fight stage, so he would have been ready to beat on Ali's reclining body for 15.

People sometimes forget that the first match between Ali and Spinks was rather competitive, and while I agree that Art Lurie's 143-142 score in favor of Muhammad was bogus, neither was the action a one sided shellacking by the upstart over the legend. Leon won a championship because he was able to close the deal by possessing that something "extra" lacking by many who fail to dethrone a great titleholder in the ring due to excessive caution, conservatism or recklessness.

 

tremendous post:thumbsup

 

At that early stage of his career though, Floyd still weighed well under 170 pounds, lost (albeit controversially) to Maxim, and Ali still had enough power to be able to hurt Leon with a surprise hook to the ribcage in their rematch. I can't see the young Patterson giving away around 60 pounds and lasting the championship distance when he himself had scarcely gone more that half of that. (Floyd didn't really come of age until Moore.)

 

Cheers. I'm only trying to provoke some serious discussion about what I believe to be an underrated historical match.

I remember watching Ali-Young, Ali-Evangelista and Ali-Shavers when they aired live, and Leon's go for broke charge at the title was something very different. Frazier went after Muhammad like that in Manila, but just about everybody else seemed to hold back in some way. When Ali covered up on the ropes, Leon let his fists go, pounding away at the biceps. Earlier, I watched Leon's somewhat lackluster draw with LeDoux, but this was the irrepressible beast who beat down Soria in Montreal. A special night.

 

Lennox Lewis was already a fully developed specimen with two Olympic experiences under his belt and he would have had a considerable size advantage. I think he would actually have the best chance.

 

Biggs is a possibility.

 

I believe that James Broad had that spot he knocked out Marvis in the trials.

 

W UD8 Tillis was number eight for Tyrell, and his next time out was the W UD10 over Jeff Sims despite the broken collarbone. Don't know about the style though.

Again, we're talking about beating the Ali of Spinks II at just the eight fight stage. Lennox was well past a dozen before he would have been clearly ready.

Tim Witherspoon? Spoon outpointed unbeaten Marvin Stinson over ten rounds eight fights in, and Stinson was a fine young prospect. He also had the combination of cross armed defense and jab which Norton troubled Ali with. Does he go for broke with Muhammad though, when he later failed to do it with Snipes and Holmes?

 

Both Tim Witherspoon and Tyrell Biggs are good possibilities to upset a last fight muhammad Ali. At 6'5, Biggs was a rangy fighter with an olympic gold medal and some decent wins by the time he had reached 8-0. His jab and boxing ability were certainly a bit more polished than Leon's and although Tyrell couldn't take a punch to save his ass, it wouldn't have mattered much at this stage, given that Ali's finishing ability was long gone...

 

Greg Page, Tyrell Biggs, and John Tate.

 

Jimmy Clark :smoke Coatesville Pa