Who would have beaten a 1966-67 Muhammad Ali?

I both agree and disagree.. In the 70's he fought better opponents. But he did not always win against those opponents, looked impressive against them, or even won legitimately as some of those fights were viewed as robberies. Still a better resume in the 70's, but the eventuality of the outcomes don't necessarily mean that he was better. On film in the 60's, he was clearly faster, cleaner, less flat footed, and had the stamina to maintain a ludicrous workrate for 12-15 rounds. His activity level was incredible in both decades as he fought and defended frequently. Its true that in the 60's he never met a Foreman, Frazier, Norton or Quarry, but he also wasn't fighting any Wepner's, coopman's, Evangelista's, etc..

 

Why Sullivan?

His inclusion is interesting. I am going over in my mind what would make him more likely that Foreman to beat Ali. My guess is that Sullivan posessed the natural punching power of a Foreman, probably with less mobility. He probably tags Ali a few good times but not enough to stop him and probably not enough to stop Ali from peppering him up with lighting fast jabs and right. (Man, I can see it now just thinking about it.)

BTW, I would pick George Foreman, the same one from Zaire, to beat the Zaire Ali, if Ali were not allow to lean on those extra loose ropes and basically lean outside of the ring. I think Foreman would have connected Ali a lot more flush and KO'ed him. However, put that Foreman in the ring with the mobile Ali from '66 and I think Ali has an easy night dancing and peppering George from the outside with a few bumps in the road.

George was not very clever in the ring and Ali was a master at mind-fighting.

 

I won't make any judgements about what John L. Sullivan was capable of doing or not doing, because I've never seen him in action, nor know very much about his opposition. But that's just the thing though... Nobody does. I find it hard to draw any accurate conclusions about a guy who fought well over 100 years ago in a totally different rendition of the sport and with no film to give us an idea of what he looked like.

 

Man, you did it again! Excellent analysis. Had Ali from the 60's face what Ali from the 70's faced he would have not had as many problems as he did.

 

Thank you.

And I'll also ad that part of the reason why the stars of the seventies are highly regarded and celebrated is because Ali helped to elevate them to that level. Frazier and Norton's resume's are built highly on the foundation that they beat Ali. Foreman's legacy rests on the shoulders of beating Norton and Frazier who again " beat" Ali. Had Ali never gone into exhile and fought Frazier around 1969 rather than 1971, would Joe really be remembered as being much better than say Zora Folley ? Would Foreman have had the claim of having that trophy of Frazier's head on his mantle and claim that he destroyed the man who beat the great Ali? While its true that the stars of the seventies SHOULD rightfully rank higher than the top fighters of the Sixties, there is also a reason for it, and that reason should be factored into the equation when judging Ali's position in history. One of the reasons why I rank Ali as the #1 heavyweight of all time is because of what I stated above.. Not only did he achieve tremendous things, but he also elevated other men to greatness. Few fighters in any division can make that claim.

 

There's no way that George would have beaten Muhammad in Zaire. If the 'Rope-a-Dope' had failed,Ali would've done something else.

 

Good post,Magoo :good

 

He was skittish and expended a lot of ineffective energy in the 60's. He was more efficient, smarter and craftier in the 70's.

Here's a question... Does the 1967 Ali beat the 1974 Foreman? I am not so sure he does.

 

Yep, that is why I asked Seamus why he included Sullivan. My guess is that he was a hitter and by his girth he was not much of a mover. But, you are right, there is not much to go on. I might be temped to read reports on him and make judgements.

 

The adjustments that he made to be more conservative in the 70's were meant to compensate for lost ability... Not to improve his fight game.. We saw a lot more holding behind the head, resting on the ropes, and less footwork. Given the choice I'll take more movement, higher work rate and greater speed. Which incidentally would make him a nightmare for Foreman.. His chin wasn't any worse in the 60's than it was in the 70's and his stamina was in all probability better.. He was also a sucker for the left hook and not big overhand or looping rights.. Foreman gets schooled against the Ali of 64-67

 

Like what?

I think he was very fortunate to have the ropes he had. He tried to come out and move but George cornered him immediately. Ali was safe on the ropes and he knew it and he was savy enough to go right to it each round...because if he did not, Foreman would have taken his head off (crazy as it looks to some eyes, Ali was facing a real threat and barely, as he did, escape it.)

In short Ali did not have any other option. It was either rope-a-dope or get punished. Fact is he took a ton of punishment anyway.

But, again...what other choice did he have?

 

So the only option open to him was to stand still on the ropes and let Foreman hit him? The only strategy available? Nah, but it was his strategy of choice.

 

Maybe and maybe not.. Foreman was actually pretty good at cutting off the ring and hurt a man with anything he tagged them with. While Ali was still very mobile even at that stage, a lot of his speed was gone by 1974 as well as the stamina to maintain a constant high work rate. Could he have beaten George by dancing with him in the center of the ring? Maybe. But obviously something compelled him to try something else.

 

I realise that Ali didn't have the speed of foot of '67 but it isn't inconceivable that using what movement he had and ring smarts he still could have won.
I don't think the rope a dope could have been the pre fight game plan judging by the amount of times Dundee shouted for Ali to get off the ropes.
At the end of the day for all that Foreman was a formidable opponent for Ali the only thing
that George had over Ali that night was power.
Power alone wasn't enough to best Ali.

 

nobody beats that version of Ali.