Who would have beaten a 1966-67 Muhammad Ali?

A fighter is not a composite of various attributes and capabilities. That's not the way the game works. Ali, as a whole, as fighter guided by ring intelligence using almost every facet of the game (legal and illegal) into a seamless fighting machine.

Reductionism doesn't work in this context.

I think Foreman has a much better chance against a greener Ali.

 

I'd make him favourite over every champ , but those below would give him tough nights.
Lewis
Holmes
Louis
Dempsey
Johnson
Tyson

 

This version of Ali overrated and I've always maintained this. I think a fair number of HW could've beaten him and few would have

 

Style wise Larry Holmes and Jack Johnson would prove his main problem. Holmes could match Ali in most departments although he was not as fast as him. They would cancel one another out in a chess match. Jack Johnson was a defensive genius who had great timing. It is possible he could time Ali's attacks while moving around the ring at a similar pace with his foe. Looking at it from another perspective Ali never faced giant heavyweights such as Lewis and the Klitschko brothers who bring ring savvy and boxing skill with their physical presence. We will never know how Ali would have coped against them, I would favour his speed to be the defining factor in victoies over the latter 3 but is not guaranteed.

 

I know that many won't like to hear this, but style wise and size wise... Ali would struggle with some of the big heavies who know how to use their size and jab etc.

One thing I do notice about the quality of opponent Ali faced back then, 1. they were much smaller than what passes for heavies these days and two, a lot of them didn't have the boxing brain of say a Lewis. Not much thought behind what Frazier brought to the table even though he was effective, same with Foreman and Liston.

So I'd give Lewis a good shot.

 

There are things the Berbick fight Ali does that can not be taught. I give that version a chance over 60's Ali.

 

I'd probably favor a prime Ali over anyone but the fighters I view as having the best chance of beating him would be big and technically sound heavyweights like Lennox Lewis and the Klitschko's it would be interesting to see how Ali deals with there reach. I think a prime Larry Holmes would have a decent chance if he could get to Ali with his jab and push him back but I'd favor Ali to win with his fast combos and better footwork. Joe Louis I think stands a chance but it would likely have to be a knock out he'd have to time Ali just right and put his lights out. Of course Joe Frazier and maybe even Marciano stand a chance if they could wear down Ali and get to him in the second half of the fight. Aside from that I don't really give any other fights much more then a punchers chance.

 

i wouldn't favor anyone to beat him but i guess anything could happen

 

I agree with the general consensus that peak Ali would be favored but could lose to a few of the ATG usual suspects. I do not agree that this Ali was "inefficient: or green: he had a gazillion amateur & plenty of challenging pro fights against top boxers, swarmers & sluggers by '66. Yes he was very effective in the '70's with his more limited skill set & great ring savvy, ironic when he lacked certain fundamentals but compensated there so well generally.

I was surprised to read that Rocky hit "much harder" than Frazier. No way. His right hand was harder & more effective, the left arguably overall, but at least it was close, & not more effective than Frazier's rightly vaunted left hook.

Dempsey wear Ali down in the later rouunds? Absolutely not, Ali had better endurance. Peak Dempsey was winded after his very early assaults against Willars in '19.

Seamus I much respect your knowledge & intelligence. But even with the extra seasoning & craft & it close for 7 rounds against a just decent fighter, you cannot be serious that the 12/81 Ghost of a Shell of Ali could possibly beat Prime Ali? ld:yikes He admitted the obvious, his skills were gone after the fight. Guile cannot nearly compensate for such a severe drop off. If it was just age, maybe. But he had Parkinson's for years, never passed a physical after Manilla, amazing he could even do that well. Bebick said he could not driop him early, then did not want to.

 

His Berbick effort is a master class in tricks of the trade and top drawer trickery, deception and baiting. I've seen plenty of sick fighters display the same. Don't be the same guy who celebrates Toney's heavyweight campaign (even tho he was thick-tongued as hell) and then degrade Ali's great effort against Berbick.

 

I am doing nothing of the sort friend.

I did not comment on Toney as a HW, & would only degrade his usage of steroids to bulk up there. I did not demean Ali's effort, just said he was (&he admitted the obvious) washed up. Reflexes, speed, power...mostly gone.

That does not mock him or his brave effort, but he admitted to deluding himself about it earlier-the weight loss & thyroid pills provided him ammunition for delusion.

Maybe this article, accurate as to the smables of a show they put on in the Bahamas, should have discussed how Ali deppoyed skills to keep it close for a while.

[url]http://cnnsi.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1125095/index.htm[/url]

 

He should have held on for a few more years and grabbed another belt. The thyroid pills were from the Holmes fight. He robbed himself of a chance for victory with those things.

Bernard Hopkins is washed up. He seems to be doing alright.

 

I know the thyroid pills-& severe dieting-were for the Holmes fight, & the SI article I linked describes this. When I wrote "earlier: I meant his last (Homles) fight, perhaps I should have specified the fight.

But c'mon, would old & Parkinson's Ali have had any realistic chance for victory without them? He was such a magician we could believe it, I recall rooting for him then in early adolescence. But he would at best have been as good as during the last Spinks fight, he could have done better/mounted an offense, but I do not see how he could have taken a peak Holmes.

Fighting a few more years?! It was a crime he was allowed to fight that late. I do not know how all those Dr's who allegedly examined him before Berbick could have claimed no physical or neuroplogical damage.

You do not think Hopkins was unusually good-at least until very recently? I think his skills set & conditioning is more responsible for his Ancient Mariner success than weak competition. Not that it was no factor.

 

I rate the Berbick fight as Ali's 3rd greatest performance. He had another act left.

 

His effort against Berbick is for me like his one-sided thrashing against Holmes, stark evidence that he no longer had any business in the ring.
Watching the Holmes fight on closed circuit in Leicester Square London was one of the saddest experiences of a boxing nature I can remember . I imagine it was the same for those fans of the Brown Bomber, seeing him knocked nearly out of the ring by the rising Marciano.

I went to see Ali give an exhibition, about a month after he beat Foreman . He was fat and funny, lucid and sharp witted,whether he would have remained that way had he retired then I don't know, but I know I would be happy to have not had the" Thrilla" and the fights that followed if it meant that he was able to converse and engage with a modicum of that charm and wit today .
Suggesting that he should have continued after it was glaringly apparent that he was totally shot and already becoming enveloped by and isolated in his illness, borders on the obscene as far as I'm concerned.

Hopkins lives like a monk and is very astute at picking his opponents.

He has never taken much punishment.
I wonder if he fights Stevenson or Kovalev,and receives a humiliating beating you will think he is doing alright?