Who would have the best chance of flooring George Chuvalo

Igor Vovchanchyn

 

Fair enough.

That's simply not true. Scorecards were 58-56, 56-58, and a draw on the third card. They were dead even.

Untrue. Foreman was behind on all score-cards. 68–66, 70–67, and 69–66.

Foreman was 24 years old. Liston was 34 and 35 at the earliest, had fought 12 minutes in 3 years, and hadn't had a tough fight in 4 years, he also came into the bout with a recorded shoulder injury.

Debatable, Liston's win over Patterson who was the reigning champion was more dominant, and he repeated the feat even more decisively the next fight.

1. This is the stereotypical criticism of Liston but it's simply not true. Their was one opponent he outweighed by 20 something pounds from '59, the beginning of his prime till the time he fought Ali.
As a matter of fact, throughout his entire career their were only 8 opponents who he outweighed by 20 something pounds, and only one opponent he outweighed by 30, and nearly all of those times were at the end of his career when he came in overweight.

2. Foreman had a much bigger weight advantage against Young, than Liston did against Foreman. Guess which one was able to overcome their statistical disadvantage and showed an ability to adapt, and which one was completely lost, and failed to make any significant changes to his strategy to alter the outcome or at least make the fight closer?

1. The only reason Frazier was anywhere near the weight of Foreman was because he had gained a considerable amount of weight from his peak as a combination of eating, and not training as hard because his heart was no longer in the game after climbing his Mount Everest.

2. Foreman came in at a rather uncommon 217. He was usually somewhere in the 220s.

He didn't need to make any adaptations against Patterson so this is relatively irrelevant.

Agree on all counts

Liston dealt with his boxers, Folley, Machen, and Whitehurst much better than Foreman dealt with his, Peralta and Young.

As I've stated above, Liston was in his mid 30s, fought just over 4 rounds in three years, and had a shoulder injury going into the bout.

I disagree, I thought he looked much better against Frazier and Norton than he did against Chuvalo.

Fair point. Even so, by your own admission he had 16 more fights, which is nearly double the fights he had against Chuvalo when he fought Frazier.

I actually just rewatched it in slow motion and it does appear Chuvalo wasn't in nearly as much trouble as I initially thought and Foreman was indeed missing punches. It was a bit of a premature stoppage, I'll give you that but I doubt Chuvalo was making any comeback. He wasn't throwing any punches back. Still the referee should've let it go one a bit longer.

Well played my friend.

I'm inclined to agree Ali's punching power is indeed underrated. His pre-exile KO percentage is a ridiculously high 79%. However he was more of an accumulative puncher as you said and not a power puncher which would be needed to have any chance of stopping Chuvalo.

I love Patterson but come on do you see the guys he was fighting? No Williams, no Folley, no Machen (before he went to the looney bin), etc. He instead opted to face guys just making their pro debut (Rademacher)

Also you neglected to mention another one his fights that didn't go the distance. I'll let you find out what it is and get back to me.

Liston fought a 27 year old young Machen. Patterson fought a 32 year old mentally unstable Machen. Machen had a mental breakdown after drawing with Cleveland Williams, which eliminated his chances of a title shot, threatened to kill himself, and was admitted to a mental hospital.

Completely false and unsubstantiated claim. Please provide proof. None exists.

See above.

My apologies I was referring to fighters Liston knocked out, who'd never been knocked out before (and in some cases again). Their are many other fighters who were never dropped or stopped prior to facing Liston. I think the most popular would have to be Henry Clark (who was knocked out by an older Liston).

 

That's because Liston's team put something in Ali's eyes that blinded him in the 5th round. If you give that to Ali and take it away from Liston that puts Ali up 5-1, 3-3, 4-2. Pretty decisive along with the results of the second fight. A knockout.

It's absolutely true. Lasting almost 8 entire rounds in African heat without having to use blinding agents on your opponent is better than quitting on your stool after 6 rounds.

Doesn't have anything to do with the heat.

Definitely both dominant wins but I consider Frazier to be the greater champion and the tougher opponent.

I was more referring to the average weight of his opponents of his entire career. If you want to talk about from 59 to Ali then I'd say he outweighed his opponents by a still significant amount. Patterson, probably his best win, was 24 and 20 lbs lighter than him. Machen and Folley both weighed about 15 lbs less than him. All 3 were shorter. Williams was the only one who was comparable size although lacking in overall ability compared to Frazier.

If you do the math and average out his opponents weights, it comes out to be the same weight just about as Rocky Marciano's opponents.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

I wouldn't consider about 9 lbs a considerable amount of weight. It's not nothing but it isn't really considerable. Frazier's peak weight was roughly 205. Foreman weighed 217 against Frazier the first time. The difference there is still smaller than Patterson's peak weight against Liston's.

Pretty true but it wasn't uncommon for Foreman to weigh below 220. That's just what he came in at that night.

Can't disagree there.

And barely 5 years into his prime.

Imo he didn't look exceptionally better to where I'd say he wasn't close to his physical prime against Chuvalo.

Almost all of them could be argued as filler fights to stay busy and build up a record.

That's pretty cool that you're able to be open to changing your mind. I see the fight as the same way. Do I think Chuvalo probably would have won had it gone on? Not at all. Do I think he had some sort of chance (even 10 or 20%)? Most definitely. However we're on the same page about it now from the sounds of it. First time I've ever encountered a poster have that kind of maturity.

Agreed.

His resume isn't littered with knockouts over the best of names but I think he deserves to be recognized as a big puncher. Bigger power than Ali but not like Foreman or Liston. Deceptive power that I think keeps him dangerous. Amongst sub 200 lb fighters he's one of the hardest hitters imo.

Do you mean did or did not go the distance? I can't find any others that did and I don't see how I missed any that didn't go the distance.

Honestly I think Machen still made a pretty damn good fight and don't think that effected him really.

Machen's testimony, Ali's, and Dundee's for starters. They aren't all lying. Plus you can see between rounds 4 and 5 that Ali clearly has something in his eyes. He only threw 7 punches in round 5. The commentator even mentions it. You can actually see Ali get up for the 5th round as if he's about to quit and throws his hands up because his eyes are burning so bad.

You're good dude. I ****ed up a little while ago with my claim that Cooper knocked out Miteff. Mistakes happen to us all.

Honestly though if Henry Clark is the best that hadn't been knocked down prior to Liston then I really don't see that as very convincing that Liston would be able to floor Chuvalo. Just my opinion but I'm more than comfortable saying that Liston would probably stop Chuvalo.

 

I went with Vlad, Just to many big hits over time and he has to stay down. Although - if Dempsey is peak, I see him wrecking Chuvalo.

Joe Louis would be third, as he could land a 3 punch combo on the button - and that might put him down...maybe

 

Dempsey or Tyson, I think explosion rather than brute strength would be the key

 

Probably Tyson.
He's so explosive and fast that Chuvalo would not even be able to see the punches coming. If Chuvalo wouldn't go down from the first shots from Tyson then the barrage would continue and at some point, Chuvalos body will collapse.

 

Their's never been any proof Liston deliberately put anything in Ali's eyes. All we can say for sure is something got in Ali's eyes, which impaired him greatly. Most likely it was the solution used to treat Liston's cuts, and they most likely got in Ali's eyes when they clinched.

Unfortunately, that's not how boxing works. You can't act like a round never happened or never existed (unless of course you were missing footage). Even so, this is still better than Foreman's performance.

That's if you think the 2nd fight was actually on the level.

Remember Foreman wasn't the only one fighting in heat. Foreman also had significant advantages. He was 7 years younger than Ali in their fight and was 25 compared to Liston who was 34/35 minimum and he was also much more active at the time.

No argument there. But Patterson was in his prime, while Frazier had clearly lost a step.

Even so, he only outweighed a couple by 20 something pounds. Only one by 30, so the average weight difference would definitely be below 20.

It is somewhat significant but it's not 20-30 pounds. In any case, I'd wager Foreman had a significant weight advantage over his opponents in the 90s off the top of my head.

Machen was 6'0". Liston and Folley were both 6'1".

I'll have to fact check this later and get back to you.

If you go by Frazier's peak weight, and Foreman's weight against Frazier in their first fight, it's a 12.5 pound difference between the 2 which is pretty significant when you take in the fact Foreman also had 4 inches on him as well. A much bigger size advantage than Liston had against Machen and Folley.

Well his natural weight was around 230 iirc, and he usually came in at 220 something, though it wasn't to uncommon he came in below.
Can't disagree there. And barely 5 years into his prime. Imo he didn't look exceptionally better to where I'd say he wasn't close to his physical prime against Chuvalo. Almost all of them could be argued as filler fights to stay busy and build up a record. [/QUOTE]
I think he looks a lot better and more experienced against Frazier. If Foreman-Frazier happened in '70, could you see Foreman replicating what he did 3 years later? I don't.

Yeah I rewatched it in slow motion on Youtube and it does seem Foreman was the majority of his punchers were either missing or barely grazing Chuvalo and his punch output started to decrease dramatically. Ref definitely called that one to quick.

Appreciate that brother.

I agree with all of the above. On a scale of 1-10, I'd put his power around an 8. The 2nd fight with Ingo looked brutal! As for sub 200 lb fighters, I agree but I also think men like Marciano, Dempsey, and Satterfield hit harder.

I was referring to Ingo.

Machen didn't say a word about his eyes being blinded until after the Ali fight. Also, if you watch their fight, Machen doesn't appear to be blinded at any point.

As for Dundee, he dismissed those rumors. "Angelo Dundee, Clay's legendary trainer, finally dismissed that theory. Dundee, 82, revealed: 'People said Liston put liniment on his gloves to blind Ali, but that was a crock."

Source: http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/liston-didnt-blind-ali-6987354.html

Their was definitely something wrong with Ali's eyes. No debate there. I just don't think it was anything of Liston's doing.

Agreed. We all make mistakes

Fair enough, but on the other side of the coin, think about the other men on this list. Who are the best Tyson floored, who'd never hit the floor before? Shavers? Dempsey? Baer? Of course Louis has Baer but he had a broken hand that eliminated his greatest weapon.

 

I think it's pretty certain. Machen and Ali both had the same experience along with Ali visibly being effected significantly is proof enough for me. It didn't get there by accident. Liston was mobbed up too so I wouldn't be surprised if they pulled something shady to give Liston an edge over a type of boxer that is stylistically bad for him. Never heard of any other fighters having this type of problem.

Ali was very smart and let him punch himself out. Also Ali was just a better fighter in general than Foreman. I don't think Foreman would have beat Ali even in an air conditioned arena but none the less he did better than Liston.

You're right, the average is below 20. I did the math. However 28 of his 54 opponents were against fighters under 200 lbs. I found where the idea of a large weight difference comes from. Of those fighters under 200 lbs, the average weight of them is 191 lbs if my math is right. Liston's weight in those specific fights was 210 lbs. So there's the 20 lb difference. For the majority of his career, Liston held a significant weight advantage over his opponents who were already less than stellar in many cases.

Of the guys that weighed close to Chuvalo (210-220) only 1 of them hadn't been stopped before and was Henry Clark. A significant amount of the fighters between 210 and 220 that Liston beat were honestly tomato cans. Williams was the only prime fighter at that weight worth talking about and Chuvalo had a hell of a lot better chin than him.

Over most of his opponents it was about 20 lbs. His later career of lower level but heavier competition skews the data.

Machen was listed as 5-11.5 and Folley was listed as 6' .5".
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p...O-2DqIsVf08X4mr3f8XcPrQgNOGNYRHk2nqtdJ6tYAYQg
https://www.thefightcity.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ali-folley-tale-of-the-tape.jpg
https://www.nytimes.com/1972/08/08/...-is-dead-heavyweight-title-seeker-fought.html

Marciano's were about 192 and Liston's were about 200. I'd say that's pretty close but Marciano was closer to his opponent's size or maybe smaller but I'm not sure.

Why would I do that when they fought in real life and were the same weight?

I'd say 1970 Frazier beats 1970 Foreman but 1970 Foreman against 1973 Frazier could still win.

Oh I see. I didn't mention him because I was referring to fights that went the distance.

Machen claimed he handled it better than Ali did. He was pretty detailed about it too.

Let's clarify that Dundee isn't saying there was nothing wrong with Ali's eyes or that Liston had nothing to do with it. He said in that very article that it was something they were rubbing on Liston.

But why not? What are the odds that in the biggest fight of Ali's life he has panic inducing burning sensation in his eyes that has nothing to do with Liston? I don't believe in coincidences. Especially with mobbed up fighters that have a shady track record.

I'm not even entirely sold on Tyson. I just think out of the names on the list he's the most likely one to do it. He has the size, power, and importantly the ability to hit his opponents with punches they don't see coming more than most any fighter in history.

Flooring Chuvalo isn't an easy task at all. He's one of the extremely rare fighters that could absorb so much punishment that the fight would be stopped long before he would take the 10 count. Chuvalo wouldn't beat Liston at all. Not even close but I don't think he would get floored. I think the fight would be stopped before that.

 

Chuvalo/Forman. Chuvalo won the 1st 2 rounds. Stopped in the 3rd. Wasn't hurt. Forman was starting to get tired and on the way to punching himself out.

 

None.

 

Machen and Ali definitely did NOT have "the same experience". No where on film does Machen, look to have even remote vision/accuracy issues at all. The fact that he said absolutely NOTHING for four years is very convenient.

No way to know for sure. The most popular theory is it was a solution used to treat Liston's cuts that happened to get into Ali's eyes.

It's possible, but you'd think they would've done it a lot more often to help Liston when he was in trouble, like for example in the first fight when Williams broke his nose, and staggered him, or when he fought Valdez, a monster puncher who shut his eye.

This isn't the only time something like this has happened. I believe the most notable occasion was probably Marciano against Walcott.

Unfortunately history tells us he did not do better. What's more is he faced an inferior version of Ali as well. I don't think a '74 Ali beats a peak Liston. The rope-a-dope would be suicide against Liston.

How did you determine the average? Did you chose a select few of Liston's (along with his opponents') weights? Because that number seems flawed.

Many were within 5-10 pounds of Chuvalo.
In his first 37 fights Foreman fought 17 people who didn't have winning records. Many of those who actually had a winning record had less than 10 fights. Liston on the other hand in his first 37 fights fought nobody who didn't have a living record with the exception of one person.

No argument there.

Agreed.

Machen was listed as 6 feet tall according to Boxrec: https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/10881

And Folley was listed as 6'1: https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/9384

I'll take your word for it. You seem like a trustworthy guy, even though I seldom agree with you (and I really didn't feel like calculating it myself )

Because Frazier was clearly overweight. For example, in their second fight Frazier was so obese, he actually outweighed Foreman by a pound! But nobody in their right mind would say Frazier was the bigger man.

Agreed.

Hmmmm that's a tough one. I'll have it sit on that.

All right, my apologies!

"I thought my eyes would burn out of my head, and Liston seemed to know it would happen." "The same thing happened to me when I fought Liston in 1960" "Clay did the worst thing when he started screaming and let Liston know it had worked," "Clay panicked. I didn't do that. I'm more of a seasoned pro, and I hid it from Liston." This is literally 4 sentences, it's not like it's extensively detailed or anything. Again, it means absolutely nothing unless their is evidence he said something about this prior to Liston-Ali because right now it just screams sour grapes.
[QUOTE[ Let's clarify that Dundee isn't saying there was nothing wrong with Ali's eyes or that Liston had nothing to do with it. He said in that very article that it was something they were rubbing on Liston. [/QUOTE[

Yes I never said Dundee denied anything was wrong with Ali's eyes but he denounced the idea that it was something deliberate on Liston's part.

It most likely did have something to do with Liston as I stated above, just not intentionally.

Fair enough, even though I think he was a bit predictable at times (especially on his off nights). I think Louis was better in this regard.

Fair enough, but the way I envisioned it is what would've happened had there been no ref to stop it.

 

Holmes had the same problem against Norton, and Weaver had the same problem against Coetzee.

 

It'd be Louis or Tyson, but I went with Louis because he'd have a better chance at inflicting serious damage from more range than Tyson.

 

All of these guys could do it on the right night. Since this is hypothetical, im picking Louis to stop Chuvalo and if Chuvalo goes the distance, theres a rematch and Louis stops Chuvalo.

 

I would have to say peak 1988 Mike Tyson would have stood a better chance of dropping iron chinned George Chuvalo. A young George Foreman tried to drop him in their fight but could not. And a rising Smoking Joe Frazier could not in their 1967 encounter, it was stopped. Sonny Liston could have, but his power was similar to that of George Foreman. I think that Mike Tyson could have because he had power and speed behind his punches, he would have smothered him.