Who would you expect to beat Joe Louis at his absolute peak ?

Well, we can certainly ad Max Schmeling to that list, given that he actually DID beat Louis.

 

The question is "Who would you expect to beat a prime Louis?" By this logic, we should say we would "expect" Rahman and McCall to beat Lennox Lewis. Louis wiped Schmeling out in their rematch, and if you hypothetically had them fight 10 times while both in their primes, I think we would all agree Louis would win well over half; hence, though Schmeling did manage to do it once, we would not "expect" Schmeling to beat a prime Louis.

 

If anyone has a suspect chin, it's Patterson. And Patterson does not punch extremely hard. He's a good puncher, but how many blowouts did he have, despite facing mediocre opposition often?

We know this:

-Louis has a ton of first round and early stoppages. Patterson barely has KO's in less than 5 rounds.
-Louis was knocked out twice, once in 12 rounds and once in 7. Patterson was stopped more often, and twice in a single round.

Now, add the fact that Patterson has a sort of come-forward style and that Louis is a boxer-puncher, much like Liston, i think it has Louis KO1 written all over it.

Conn was faster than Tunney and Ali. You have to remember that Conn was so fast because he was a small guy. Ali is faster pound for pound perhaps, but in reality he is likely not to be as fast, while of course he is stronger, harder punching and more durable.

I'm not saying it's a wrong comparison, by the way, i'm just saying it's exaggarated a bit. You can just as easily say that Louis beats Ali because he had a great jab like Norton and Jones.

If Cooper can knock Ali down and nearly out, imagine what bigger, better punchers like Liston and Foreman would do to him!

Well, Foreman was dead exhausted in a mere 8 rounds when he was 25 years old. Johnson was exhausted after 26 rounds when he was 37 years old.

And what if Louis is still there by the 8th? Unlike Ali, he can hit extremely hard in return.

Even so, how does that erase the embarrassing knockdown by Young, or the fact that the only puncher who landed on him, Lyle, nearly had him out? I'm guessing that if Foreman had to fight 30 contenders like Louis did, we'd see a lot more negative things in his chin.

Well, Lyle's puncher's resume is extremely thin. What good fighter did he stop? The only one i can think of a Earnie Shavers, who had a glass chin... all the other opponents went the distance or knocked Lyle out.

Schmeling stopped several top opponents, although he is a bit unproven against bigger men.

1. Louis-Schmeling wasn't a one-sided beating, but it was a beating nonetheless. Schmeling wasn't a weak puncher. And doesn't Foreman, by your own definition, have a suspect chin as well, since he was knocked out by a weak puncher and knocked down by another weak puncher? Dito for Lyle.

Well, he was two years into his career and getting sloppy in training. I think he proved that when he knocked out Schmeling in the rematch which wasn't even competitive. And what about other ATG's that he did knock out, like Baer, Walcott and Sharkey? The fact that Louis had such a dominant reign repressed contenders from developing and making a big name for theirselfes, too. You have to take that into account. If Ali hadn't taken that lay-off, his fights with Frazier would've carried less value because Frazier couldn't have risen to be a dominant champ himself.

Tell me which fighter faced 3 all time great champions within 2 years of their pro career and lost only one, which was later avenged by a first round knockout?

See my comments above. And what missing spots does his resume have?

 

Tommy Farr was a small fighter who would not be in the heavyweight business in a modern ear of heavyweight boxing. Lou Nova is a decent fighter, but having him ranked as the #1 guy??? Egads!

Wrong. Galento was colorful mob connected journeyman with a punch. Simply check his records and you will see what I am talking about. Galento lost many matches to nobodies. He was stopped three times before facing Louis, and two of those people who stopped him were nobodies.

Joe Louis saw Galento flail away at ringside and figured he would give Galento a title shot. Galento was near the end of his career. Then something unexpected happened. Galento's nearly upset Louis. This fight proves how vulnerable Louis was to any many that can punch hard and land it on him. Is Louis was in there vs a more skilled puncher he would be in serious trouble. Anyway, Galento then defeated Lou Nova , then lost two straight via TKO to the Baer brothers.

Louis never meet Maxie Rosenbloom, who his management felt could defeat him. Rosenbloom was a skilled guy who threw a lot of punches, and was hard to hit on defense. Rosenbloom would have make Louis look bad. Maxie was one of those people with no power, but a great chin and defense. Indeed, Rosenbloom was only stopped 2 times in 298 fights! Toward the end of his career, Rosenbloom beat a #1 ranked contender in Nova, and beat many of the same people Joe Louis did such as Toles, Levinsky, Ettore, John Henry Lewis well before John Henry was shot. Louis beat a sick and shot John Henry, and only gave him a title shot because he needed money. Ronenbloom also fought and defeated the some black fighters that Louis did not in Tiger Fox, and Leroy Haynes. Even Bert Sugar says Louis avoided Slapsie Maxie.

Louis did not give black fighters like Obie Walker, Elmer Ray, George Godfrey, Turkey Thompson, or Lem Franklin title shots. Louis management was close to giving Elmer Ray a title shot, then saw him live at the Madision Sqaure Garden and changed their minds. So Louis did not fight the best out there in a down era of heavyweight boxing. To suggest he did is not factually true. Louis management used the color line in many cases.

Just watch the films, look at the ring records, then make a judgment call. The mid 1930's to mid 1940's were a down period in heavyweight boxing.

I agree, but Marciano never used a color line, and pretty much fight the best out there as champion.

Check the ring magazine ratings. You'll see there were more rated cream puffs in the mid 30's to mid 40's.

Louis looked very good vs journeyman in most of his fights, but struggled vs the best fighters he fought in Schmeling, Conn, Pastor, Walcott, Farr, Godoy, Braddock, Galento and company. I don't think the all time #1 or #2 heavyweight should have troubles vs these type of fighters. No way.

Most of the fighters Louis fought were not that good to begin with and would be looking up a the lights vs other all time greats too. If Louis knocked everyone out easily, then why did he need so many re-matches? The answer is because he did not look good in the first fight, was sometimes knocked down, other times looked bad in distance fights.

Jimmy Young at his best was a very good fighter. However, who else did Foreman look bad against? No one really besides Ali. By Contrast, Louis had far more shaky performances vs people who were not even as good as Jimmy Young. See my point?

Again, Louis is lucky to win at Madison Square Garden vs Godoy in 1940, and lucky to win vs Walcott in 1947 Madison Square Garden. I have seen both fight, and Louis lost them. They Walcott fight has audio. In fact, the Garden gave out a thunderous boo when Louis was announced as the winner vs Walcott, then gave Walcott a standing ovation. Louis body language before being announced as the winner was that of the loser.

I have studied this era of boxing, and it was crooked as a dog's back leg. Furthermore, Louis managers had a special deal with Madison Square Garden, and also picked Art Donovan who in my opinion was horrible on the scorecards in favor of Louis. Donnavan was so biased the Walcott camp insisted he could not ref / judge their 1947 match. In another fight Art Donnavan only gave 1 round of 15 to Tommy Farr. This is crap. If you honestly score fights correctly, Louis has two more losses on his resume, and does not win 25 title bouts in a row.

 

Tunney, Johnson and Ali all have a great chance.

Dempsey would be the underdog but he could do it.

And, of course, Schmeling.

That's it.

 

Conn not gifted??? He was a great fighter. He was highly gifted as a fighter. Sure he had his faults. But We talking about a great pound for pound leaper imo. How can he not be natural gifted?? Very few fighters had his talents.

 

i agree

 

Farr would be meat today as a heavyweight. He was too small and did not hit hard enough. Yet look at the trouble Farr gave Louis.

Most dominant champion to can mean many things. Louis was a great fighter, but I do not think he fought in a talented era. I think he avoided some of the top talent in his own era as well which compounds the problem.

I feel that Louis received two favorable decisions, and had either decision been judged correctly, Louis does not have 25 title defenses in a row, which is his #1 claim to greatness. In addition, Louis was shaky in some fights vs competition that I feel would not give other all time great as many fits. Louis gets a boost from the media, and for being a hero. Televison can be a powerful medium for historians who do not study ring records or break down films the way I and some other people do. When you tally it all up, I just do not objectively see or read a #1 or #2 all time heavy. Top 5 for me, with #4 or #5 being reserved for Louis

I have pretty much said what I want to say here, so I'll bow out. However I can post a few write up on Louis' fights if anyone wants to see them. Some here may be shocked at how close Louis' distance battles were in the eyes of the press vs guys like Farr, Godoy or Pastor, or how he was being out boxed vs others until landing the KO blow.

 

Mendoza, can you post the first Louis-Pastor fight report as well as the first Godoy report and anything else you have?

Also who would you rate as ur number one or two heavyweight?

 

There are no heavies like Tommy Farr today. So why should be assume that a person like Farr would be ranked today? See my point? IMO Farr would not be ranked in the 80's 90's, or 00's at heavy. The style of the small boxer with little power is all but extinct in modern heavyweight boxing. Only a master boxer with a great chin, good defense, with a twist on his style ( Byrd ) can be compared to Farr. And Byrd was better than Farr. I hope that addresses that point.

Galento has a journeyman record, and many losses and draws to nobodies. He was ranked because the era he fought in lacked talent, and because he was " connected ". Galento did win a few big fights, but I beleive the above comments best explain why he had the opportunity to be ranked. Like Farr, Galento would not be ranked today at all.

I did not reply to Louis low guard, slow / predictable footwork, or stick you face forward stance because it is clearly there to see on film, and really is not debatable. Just watch a few of his fights or read the press clippings of the time and you will see these flaws.