Who would you pick to beat a 130 lb mayweather?

Indeed, and that sucks.

As for Marquez, Pacquiao will struggle in December, at the very least. That man is his eternal foil. I don't think it's entirely indicative of a potential Mayweather showdown though. Floyd presents several of the same problems and on an even greater scale, but they go about their business in different ways.

Anyway, the point isn't that I'd have favored Pacquiao. Hopefully this won't get swept up into that discussion. The point is that I want to see Mayweather tested by a superior offense than what has been thrown his way. If he were to have went out and looked as technically flawless and brilliant against Pacquiao as he has everyone else, I'd be very, very impressed. Provided Pacquiao gets by JMM again cleanly enough, I'd still be quite impressed at this stage, even if Manny's decline has become rather obvious. When matching him with other ATG's, I'd be a lot more confident in his abilities, which I already consider spectacular.

 

Pacquiao was that around the Cotto fight.

But not anymore, looks past it.

Anyway, I have no problem with saying Floyd is a brilliant operator, none whatsoever. My problem are with those (we've seen a few of 'em in this thread) that make out he's some kind of infallible genius.

It's nothing to do with Floyd. It's about those that were better, that took on bigger risks and who outfought/outboxed/outmanouvered better fighters than he has.

All I hear is 'he's a defensive master' blah blah blah. For me, that sequence against N'Dou isn't impressive. It clearly shows what a crap and basic fighter Floyd was in there with.

Oh, and the few slights against him get dismissed as 'he took away Oscar's jab wow what an adjustment' and 'he had a bad shoulder'. As soon as you say anything negative it's 'you just don't like him'.

**** off the lot of ya'. Get back to me when you've watched Marcel dissect Gomez and Shibata.

 

Mayweather does seem to have a good body defence, I've rarely seen him take bodypunches, Castillo 1 being the exception, which Chavez ofcourse.

The thing he doesn't do aswell as Pernell did that controlled Chavez, is circling, he backs up in straight lines, quickly but still ending up against the ropes. Against someone who backs up opponents aswell as Chavez, this is an issue.

Still plenty of the fight would be in the ring centre, ie Floyd's range, whether it's Floyd being quicker/rangier with his pot shotting and countering or turning or slipping off

He's also stiffer and more mechanical than Whitaker, despite being relaxed himself.

Mayweather while having a great defense, can be tagged flush with overhand rights, I see Chavez landing a few of these being 1 of his best quickest punches

In terms of infighting, I disagree, I'd say it's a strength, you have the Chavez/Augustus fights, Castillo 1 he didn't get the better of the inside battle albeit against a bigger man, then you have later Hatton/Cotto where he beats them inside, albeit at a higher weight. Now did his infighting improve? I'm not sure. But if we're touching on Mayweather improving his skills, isn't there a better case Chavez improved a fair bit after 130? I thought his balance, footwork and defense improved

Still this is all focusing on Mayweather's weaknesses, what about Chavez? The big focus is on Mayweather having a close fight with Castillo and Mayweather not as good in some ways as Whitaker. But what about Randall, he beat Chavez too, albeit a somewhat past prime Chavez, but I believe it was Steward who said Chavez would also struggle against such a style? Then you have the close Lockridge battle, a different style granted.

Obviously many fighters would do better than Augustus, it's just that 1 wasn't that close. Also Corrales/Hatton didn't have more success than Augustus, so it comes down to styles too, although Chavez does have the Castillo style

I don't think he's unbeatable, I do genuinely think he was the 1 of the best in his weight range in history. Neither is Chavez unbeatable who like Floyd gets a little overrated by another section of fans, both had that long 'unbeaten run', which overrated both of them, but both didn't have the greatest of winning competition. The thing is 130lbs is a young division and many like Whitaker/Duran bypassed the division

I do still rate him very highly, I think you'd probably rate him higher than you let on yourself, if he was a 5'3 bantamweight Thai

I used to be a more biased poster, favouring boxers I had more in common with, while having no appreciation for slower types and pressure fighters. I've grown to appreciate what they do and generally be less of a twat I hope, certainly not wanting to be aligned with the types who champion Floyd's cringeworthy crass behaviour.

 

If a Thai turned up with that style I'd hate him for not being Thai enough ;-)

IMO, Floyd's added strength in recent years is due to his Rafael Nadal esque extended periods off. I'll say no more other than he was clearly bigger than Cotto whatever he says.

 

This is all true, but to me Floyd looks better than Kalambay and just because he hasn't doesn't mean he couldn't beat a top line technician. Ultimately you're right that it's the style he's less proven against

Who was the best technician in his era that he shared a division with? Maybe Spadafora, who was pretty good, not sure their sparring has a reflection on a match up but you never know. Him and Stevie J and Casamayor. 3 quality fights that no one cared about to make.

In terms of technicians he's beat, it's a smaller Marquez? Delahoya never a great technician but a very good all rounder even at 34. Then there are speedy B-C level stylists like Judah, Corley, Sosa and Old Mitchell. Sosa actually pushed Mayweather and Spadafora, so decent, Mitchell's legs were gone

No no one as good a McCallum though

 

Maybe, maybe not, he's still worse than he was and I reckon he's added the muscle all wrong anyway.

 

I think he could as well! But you know me, I prefer to go on what I've actually seen. Hernandez, Castillo, even Ricky at that point, Judah, even Chavez, and Cotto at that time, there's nothing wrong with any of those guys. All solid fighters, some better than others of course.

There's just other fighters with better ledgers.

He has some solid wins spoiled a bit by circumstance (Oscar, Shane, Marquez) but again, all fighters do. But when there's little to go and you look at the greatest scalps on a fighters ring record and there are a few negatives here and there I find it hard to get passionately behind the fighter as an incredible force.

Best win in terms of the opponents rep' going in and performance, is clearly Corrales. But Chico wasn't great.

I reserve that for Aaron Pryor as well. As awesome as he looks (and like Floyd, clearly of fighter of the highest calibre) Pensioner Pembele, a still brilliant Arguello (out of his best weight and obviously there's a big question mark in that fight) even more long in the tooth Alexis...those are the best fighters faced and it doesn't blow my mind. Also scatty against Kim and pretty shocking against Kameda, who wasn't bad but not all that either.

I wouldn't have Pryor in my top 100 fighters ever and I wouldn't pick him over every great ten stone fighter.

Floyd is greater than Pryor but as for his fighting prowess I don't see him as unbeatable, just like Pryor and Ricardo Lopez.

It's very hard to have a real tough career and go undefeated. If you look at those that did manage it their are question marks, and that's because the record is, to an extent, manufactured.

Floyd was the no.1 lightweight and welterweight in the World though. That's a top quality achievement even in this era.

 

Elaborate please. You reckon his legs are ****ed?

 

I said what I said...but this is true...every word. Strong stuff. Cheers Cobra:good

 

Random shout out that I think was mentioned but Canzoneri was awkward and brilliant. He could deal very effectively with boxers (Chocolate and Ross) and Floyd doesn't hit hard enough to keep him off. He's a great counter puncher so hell make Floyd lead and he is big enough, winning a title at 140, to muscle Money if necessary and deals well with speed.

 

If Pac signed the contract in 2009 we'd have had the fight.

 

My point exactly,some give Chavez only a small chance though.I don't see how a fighter who throw 1-2 punches at a time would handle the relentless pressure of a Chavez,floyd wouldn't be able to keep JCC of him.Some people think because floyd is undefeated he's unbeatable but that's far from the truth.

 

This is the logical end to it. He's not going to out-maneuver him and circle him, as Chavez is not a lumbering Corrales. And it's very hard to imagine him out-crating and out-hustling Chavez on the inside.

 

And it's not like Floyd uses a busy educated jab against pressure fighters that could upset Chavez' forward momentum and help him control the distance either.

When he does his offensive work that gains respect it's more in the form of planted feet Curry\Leonard punchpicking with his rights over the top etc

in the absence of excellent power or a lot of physical advantages that's not really a style that's going to work at deterring Chavez from exchanging and working things into an infight.