Who would you pick to beat a PRIME Sonny Liston ?

The series was "Tyson vs The Heavyweight Greats" and I believe it ran in the late 80s. He wasn't specific about anyone else. He talked of how he watched the old films and while doing so imagines how he would deal with facing the various strengths and abilities of certain ATG heavies. Then he goes on to state that the one he watched that gave him the most problems envisioning a victory over was Sonny Liston. I remember the quote as "I watch Liston and I say 'Oh my God. How would I get through that jab?' And, if I did, I'd have to beware of that right. Liston could break your jaw with one shot."

 

Sure -and Ali is the foil for Liston and his style -though not because of that "cons were scared of head-cases" line that Dundee is still selling.

Damn. I used to go and fight at this garage gym outside of Boston and the walls were covered with pages and posters from boxing magazines. That Tyson interview (from KO -I'm almost positive) was on the wall and I read it a zillion times... in the late 80s. He said that he saw problems with Liston's jab. That stands out.

Liston was measured only for as long as he was measuring. Once he got a guy hurt he opened up, but he did so very intelligently at his peak. He threw short hooks, he'd remember to go low, and if you watch those two beauties with Williams, you just don't see combinations like that from HWs anymore. However, he jabbed very heavily and he did not always jab to the head. See, Tyson's head is gonna be slipping. Liston would jab to his chest and once Tyson got stopped in his tracks or moved back, Liston would step in with a right hand -not from range, but from mid-level because he's stepping in. Tyson would not necessarily walk Tyson down like Holyfield did (good eye by the way), he would stick out that jab and then step in behind it to throw combinations once that jab got his man out of position. That was where he was most dangerous.

Yes, but that engine burned out quickly and those murderous thoughts were rooted in fear. Liston's engine had more gears and he could conserve stamina far better. His thoughts were more other-oriented, I think. In other words, he wasn't struggling with any insecurities in the ring, he really believed that he was gonna kill you. Tyson was emptier ---he filled himself with bad thoughts not because he really believed them, but because he wanted to fight off his insecurities.

Tyson ain't much on the inside. He was most comfortable at one range -mid-range. Liston could fight at all three ranges -outside, mid, and he was excellent inside. Liston would hurt him if Tyson stayed there. Tyson sought to rest inside.

Any talk that says that Liston had no heart is just plain silly when you look at the total context of the man's career.

Was he ponderous? Sure. But less so in '59/60. And he compensated for it in many other ways.

I hear you. Marciano, for all of his own faults, was raised by a strong working class family that had strong working class values. He truly believed in those values upheld in 40s and 50s America (you know, about not bragging, being humble and gracious and all that). Liston? His background and life experience was nothing like Marciano's.

Everytime I hear Elvis Costello's "Complicated Shadows" I think of him. And everytime I watch the second round of that second fight with Cleveland Williams I can't think of any HW today standing up to that.

 

Well, damn. Dude called me just a "hipster." Why can't I be a hipster-revisionist?

 

Yep, I remember that specifically.

 

i think a motivated bowe could beat him, with heavy emphasis on motivated. course, i'm partial to bowe and believe that with his ability to fight on the inside or outside, solid chin, and great powe, i think a motivated bowe beats just about anyone. kinda like tyson if he had stayed with rooney

 

Besides Ali, good shot from most HW champs since then.
Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson, maybe even Vitali.

These guys were variously, too big, strong, quick, or punched as hard but were quicker. Eddie Machen said he was doing fine till he got the liniment treatment.

But is it fair to just speak about the Liston of one fight (v WIlliams)?
If so, then the Buster Douglas of that one night, might be too good for any HW ever? Only problem was we saw it only for that one night.

 

There are plenty of good examples of Liston's effectiveness in the ring -the two Williams fights among them but any number of from 59/60. Most judge Liston based on another two fights. When discussing H2H, we want to present the best version of each fighter.

 

lets see , i will try not to make it too long :yep :

the certains :


David Tua
George Foreman
Riddick Bowe
Vitali Klitschko


the near certains :
Jameel McCline
Mike Tyson
Evan Fields
Oliver McCall


the 50-50s :
Ike Ibeabuchi (just because lefthook says he was floored constantly by Kirk Johnson . And actually he was unproved vs straight punches)

Ross Puritty (something like 50-50 if the question regards 12 rounds)
Joe Louis (something like 50-50 again)
Ron Lyle (50-50 again)
Earnie Shavers (Liston's chin was not much better than Shavers')
Wladimir Klitscko (actually more like 60-40 at least in Wlad's favor)
Lennox Lewis (like in Wlad's case)
Hassim Rahman
Oleg Maskaev (Liston is actually a slight favorite here , but I wouldn't have bet on this fight)
Michael Grant (prime)
Corrie Sanders (he was just so good vs smaller men , but not very tough)
George Chuvalo
Bob Cleroux
Sultanakhmed Ibragimov
Ruslan Chagaev
Kirk Johnson
Chris Byrd (either Liston dislocates his shoulder , or repeats Ibeabuchi , both realistic)
James "fatass" Toney (just because he was never close to being a real HW)
Martin Rogan in his relative "prime"
Pinklon Thomas (of course not the version that fought Tyson or Fields)
Tony Tucker
James Smith (the George Foreman of his era)
Mike Hunter
Muhammad Qawi
Frank Bruno

sorry that my time is limited , otherwise there would have been some more.

 

Lewis and Ali would likely have the best chance of beating Liston. Ali with speed, and Lewis with a combination of size and skill.

I think Foreman's lack of defense would hurt him against Liston or at least make him an underdog in terms of predicting him to win.

Holyfield I don't see bring enough power into the ring, and Tyson would have to get past Liston's jab and even when he does he has a pretty good fighter waiting for him on the inside.

Louis and Holmes, could potentially beat him as well, hard to say.

 

'88 Tyson

 

Larry Holmes

 

Lennox lewis!

 

Only person I'd say is Lewis due to being so physically large, long arms, good jab and power.

 

Well, from 1887 to 1964, I have Liston in the top-5 of ATG heavyweight fighters.... Liston was a poor champion due to his reign being that of a pair of KO's over the smaller and weaker Floyd Patty before losing to Clay / Ali two times.....

Liston would do well if he was primed in the classic 70s era, but he'd still fall short with Ali, Foreman and Holmes........ Liston KO's "Frazier, Quarry, Norton, Lyle and Shavers" for sure... Or at least gets the decision there....

I don't think Liston can beat later champs like "Tyson, Holy, Bowe, Lewis or the K-bros. if all are trained and peaked....

Liston runs into problems with post-1965 champions......

MR.BILL:hat

 

:deal