Who would you pick to beat a PRIME Sonny Liston ?

:deal

 

Then I don't know why you even mentioned him since in my first post here that you responded to I pointed out Liston's lack of fights against BIGGER men.

Liston's record was built on 200lb (ie cruiser sized) heavies. If you want to split hairs and a claim a 205lb guy as a full fledged heavyeweight then fine. It still makes no difference when Liston is being matched with the likes of Ray Mercer or Tim Witherspoon. How many bigger heavyweights did Liston face?

The knockdown where Ali was on his feet at the count of two, walked back to his corner unaided and proceeded to beat the snot out of Cooper in the following round.

Do you have a source for Cooper being ahead on the cards in both Ali fights?

Ali actually fared worse against Leon Spinks than Gerrie Coetzee and the great John Carlo, and much worse against Berbick than Tyson did, if you want to go down that road. Me, I never said Mildenberger and Chuvalo were better than Liston, just that they gave Ali a much better fight than he did. That obviously bothers you.

 

I never said it wasn't legitimate, I just think it gets overblown. Dundee and Cooper both milked it for all it was worth for different reasons. Ali got knocked down and he got up instantly, walked back to his corner and was well enough to dominate Cooper in the next round and force a stoppage.

 

First off, I never said he wasn't a heavyweight. I said he wasn't a big one. And no, you didn't mention Liston's lack of fights against BIGGER men. You said he fought mainly cruiserweights. Here is the post your now trying to run away from I agree.

He actually only fought 2 heavyweights who weighed 200 pounds. But to answer your question, there were 7 fights in which Liston was outweighed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hwn2mqNI1I He went down at 12:44 and got up at 12:49.

12:51 - a corner man aids Ali back to his corner. Keep on trolling.

After sniffing smelling salts illegally and a delay in the fight.

"A blood bath ensued and the referee was forced to stop the fight in Ali’s favour, despite Cooper being up on the scorecards.
In 1966 Cooper fought Ali, and the reigning world heavyweight champion, for a second time.
Cooper lost on a technical knockout - despite being up on the scorecards for a second time - because he was bleeding badly from his eye.

Souce: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ritish-boxing-legend-felled-Muhammad-Ali.html

I look forward to seeing you attempt to backtrack and switch goalposts yet again.

Thank you for doing a very good job arguing my point for me. :good Saved me quite a bit of time.

 

I thought you said, "Spider I'm all right ". I am not sure of the points being made here. I need to eat. It may be a blood sugar thing.

I don't watch the Cooper fight and think .... whoa that was a close one!

I do take issue with your Mildenberger/Chuvalo point! Ali's performance against gives no real insight into Liston. Ali didn't treat those fights like a Liston fight. He would let Liston wai way ala Chuvalo for example It's like comparing apples to ribs. If you continue to make this argument i will have no alternative but to challenge you to a duel! Choose your second. I will need to get hot wings first.
Good day Sir!

 

Here's what I said in my first post on this thread, which you actually quoted and responded to. For your benefit, I have underlined, bolded and italicised the important word:

Funny that just now you chose to only quote the last sentence from that post.

Seven fights against men who were bigger, and how many of those were any good? So are we now agreed that Liston simply never came up against bigger men who were talented, experienced, had power, durability etc.

You can see the timekeeper counting behind Ali. he gets up between two and three.

He wasn't helped backed to his corner. Dundee just grabs him as he comes in.

I have The Times' next day report of that fight, and there isn't any mention of a delay.

You're quoting a Daily Mail article written 48 years later by an unnamed reporter. Now what I'd call a primary (or reliable) source. Boxrec doesn't report the official scorecards for either bout.

But still, thanks for posting an article which reports that a "bloodbath ensued" minutes after Clay was supposedly on the verge of being KO'd. :good

Yup, we're agreed that Chuvalo and Mildenberger did much better against Ali than Liston did and all your diversions about George Foreman and whoever else are irrelevant.

 

Funny ?? Tyson had much better handspeed than Liston. :smoke

 

I only quoted the last sentence because that was the only post relevant. But I didn't see that part that was my mistake

Seven

No

You can COUNT the number of seconds on youtube. That clearly was not two seconds.

He would've reached the ropes had he stayed straight.

http://www.bbc.com/news/16985467

"Sir Henry Cooper, knighted by then, told the BBC in 2000 that the confusion resulted in a few minutes' delay between rounds." Is Cooper himself an unnamed source as well?

You did not disappoint
http://en.espn.co.uk/boxing/sport/story/88363.html
"Three years later Ali, by then the heavyweight champion, gave Cooper his only chance of a world title but again the fight was stopped with Cooper, ahead on all scorecards, bleeding profusely. "

Nope you're once again putting words in my mouth.

 

The only champs I would rate higher than Liston are Ali and Foreman. We really never saw much of prime Sonny.

 

And a 13 inch SHORTER wingspan.:yep

 

Every rival of prime tyson had longer reach than him... So what?

 

Fight Advantages:
Hand Speed- Tyson, Boxing Ability- Liston, KO Power-Liston, Size-Liston, Defense-Liston, Endurance-Liston, Adaptability-Liston, Foot Speed-Tyson, Strength-Liston, Jab-Liston, Cuts-No Advantage, Reach-Liston(84”) and Tyson(71”), Body Attack-Tyson:

 

So who were these bigger men he fought that had talent, durability, experience etc? Chuck Wepner? Cleveland Williams? Liston simply never came up against men of the size and calibre of Mercer and Spoon. I don't know why you find that so hard to acknowledge.

He's clearly up between the timekeeper's count of two and three.

Regardless, he clearly got back to his corner unaided.

Every time Cooper re-told the story the delay got longer. I gave you a primary source which made no mention of a time delay. You'd think a British newspaper would be screaming blue murder if Sir Enery had been robbed of victory against the mouthy Yank by a delay of several minutes but for some reason they decided not to even mention it. And where exactly is this delay of several minutes on the video?

And now you've given me an article written 48 years later by an unnamed ESPN reporter. How about a primary source, you know something actually written at the time?

So you disagree that Mildenberger and Chuvalo gave Ali a harder fight than Liston did?

 

I rate him ahead of both of them... and even ahead of himself. Have you seen that scowl?

 

For what it is worth, Boxrec's account:

Before round four, one of Clay's managers, William Faversham, shouted to his man to stop messing about and to get down to work. This Clay did, though he still would not go all out. He had predicted a fifth-round win and appeared to carry Cooper until he decided enough was enough.

With seconds remaining at the end of the fourth round, Cooper unleashed a savage left hook, "Enry's 'Ammer". The punch landed bang on Clay's jaw and he fell, backwards on to the ropes and then down. He got up at the count of four, then the bell sounded. There was pandemonium in Wembley Stadium.

What happened next became ring folklore. Clay was in a bad way and was helped to his stool by trainer Angelo Dundee, who slapped his legs and gave him smelling salts in the corner. Clay looked in shock: wide eyes staring in bewilderment.

Dundee called the referee over to the corner and told him Clay had a torn right glove. Some have accused Dundee of tearing the glove to get Clay more time to clear his head, but the films of the fight prove that the glove had been split in the fourth round. However, Dundee later admitted that he stuck his finger in split glove, causing a slightly bigger split.

It has been reported that officials went back to the dressing room to get a pair of replacement gloves, but they were unable to find a pair. However, Teddy Waltham, then General Secretary of the British Boxing Board of Control, said that is not true.

"Referee Little was called to Clay's corner, and then shouted to us officials at ringside for a new pair, which I already had quite near," Waltham said. "There was no question of anyone having to go to the dressing room to get them, as has been suggested."

Harry Vines, who later became Chief Inspector for the BBBofC, also said that there were a suitable pair of replacement gloves at ringside. "I am not sure whether both gloves were replaced or just the split one, but the latter certainly was," he said. "Certainly no one had to go all the way back to the dressing room to get a pair."

It has also been reported that five minutes passed before the fifth round started, but ringside timekeeper Stan Courtney said that is false. "At no time was I instructed to stop my watch to allow for the refitting of the gloves," he said. "Therefore, I waited until I got the signal from referee Little to ring the bell. When I did so, my watch showed that the interval between rounds had in fact been 1:40."