Who wouldve taken Listons crown had Ali not been born?

Yeah, Ellis around '67 might be a tricky match-up for him.

 

Yeah, I think Ellis gets a bit undersold. Solid resume. I had him losing to Patterson, though.

 

One of the few robberies that were actually robberies, and not just an extremely close fight where the decision may have went to the wrong guy.

 

Maybe been a long time I’ll rewatch it and make a thread of it maybe, it’d be good to see everyone’s card on that one. But yeah Ellis gets sold short or forgotten a bit - he had a lot of heart, aggressive, right hand happy, Fun viewing. He’d give the 175lbers hell today, could cut down and fight Canelo at 168lbs and take his head off, good P4Per in this bizarre fever dream weight class era.

 

“Did pretty good?” I couldn’t say I agree.

 

For a one handed decent fighter maybe?

 

Leotis Martin. He KO'd a past prime Liston IRL.

 

Ali didn't "take it"...Liston GAVE it to him by QUITTING while sitting on his stool! As writer Robert Lipsyte said of Liston..."As Heavyweight Champion Of The World...you DIE trying! Sonny didn't do that...he just sat there!"...Some champ...

 

Sonny was winning...until he got cut...and started to taste his own blood!...Fights over!

 

Ellis having a comparable resume to Liston was equally laughable.

 

Liston would’ve been 41 by the time Foreman gets on the scene, that’s when Foreman won the title, surely Frazier takes it from Liston before then, potentially even an Ellis or Quarry beat an aging Liston, if Leotis Martin can.
Bear in mind, I’d pick Liston to beat every single name I’ve just mentioned in his prime apart from Foreman which is a 55/45 fight prime for prime imo.

 

Agreed. Very boring and predictable poster.

 

I think it's just a very forgetful statement. Likely thinking exclusively of top prime-to-prime wins at heavyweight and nothing else.

If we were to go by this logic and play devil's advocate, we can see that Ellis won against Martin, Bonavena, Quarry, Patterson (On paper), and Chuvalo, as well as only holding losses to Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali during that time. Compared to Liston's wins of Williams x2, Folley, Machen, and Patterson x2- And only holding losses to Ali twice. I do think most of us would agree that the Quarry and Patterson wins from Jimmy's side would be better than anything Liston accomplished, due to Jerry arguably beating a better version of Floyd than Sonny did twice, and the version of Patterson that Ellis "beat" being better than the one that Liston did- So this statement makes a TAD bit of sense.
The thing is, you've got to jump through a lot of hoops to make this logic work. If you really want to speak the truth, it's not so hard.

Liston has wins over all of the men stated above, as well as Whitehurst, Bathea, Summerlin, Dejohn, Valdes, Harris, and Wepner, whereas Ellis has who else to place on his record- A declining Holly Mims, who he dwarfed in size?
Sonny also possesses only two additional losses on his record, an early decision loss to Marty Marshall in which he revenged, and a late career loss to Leotis Martin who he was beating comfortably before he gassed out... And he STILL made Martin retire after the match. Whereas Jimmy holds losses to Mims, Hank, Carter, (Don) Fullmer, and Benton pre heavyweight, as well as losses to Shavers, Kirkman, Lyle, Bugner, and Frazier again post-prime.

The point is, Ellis' resume is nowhere near the same to Liston's. Jimmy was good, but not good enough to have this comparison made.

 

He just copy and pastes the same comments over and over I don't think I've ever actually seen him have a proper discussion here he just leaves the same boring predictable hate comments and then leaves.