Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by swagdelfadeel, Dec 5, 2017.
I don't think either has a prayer against Liston or Foreman
I feel that this was one of Ali's best and gutsiest performances considering he fought a prime Frazier while not at his own best. He was certainly better pre exile in 65-67. He would be better in 72 in the model that fought Quarry and Chuvalo and had regained skill and timing that had not come back yet in 3/71 after such long layoff and two rushed fights where he showed plenty of rust. He was lucky in the first Quarry fight that Jerry got so badly cut as he was clearly slowing down fast against so dangerous a comeback opponent .. as far as the Bonavena fight, the very tough and awkward Bonavena was another very dangerous comeback opponent. Many forget how for the first time Ali looked slow, tired and hittable (for him) without terrific speed of legs ( for him ) because of the highly improbable last round stoppage .. for him to be rushed into a fight like Frazier was a huge gamble and only done for the money out of fear of him again losing a license or worse.
AS far as who matches up better, likely this Frazier but it would be close as Ali had the size and skills to match up better
I'd give better chances against Foreman
Smoking Joe was peak, amazing, and would not be beat.
Joe Frazier was a beast.
Ok. I don't see any basis for such a definitive statement myself.
Primes Frazier bests Ali
Ali was great that night, and many fights before and after.
Frazier was the best that night than he ever was before and never was able to be as great again, joe gave it all he had and it took alot out of him, but damn he was devastating that night
Ali just didn't have the legs to stay away from Liston for the full 15 at this point. He would've tired eventually as he did against Frazier and be forced to stand his ground. I believe he would've tried the rope a dope as well which would've been absolutely suicide against a prime Liston. Frazier would stand a much better chance imo but would lose in a war.
Yes that could happen. It even might. But I wouldn't go nearly as far as giving Ali and Joe "no chance". They were both a good way better that night than anyone Liston ever beat, so I don't think it's realistic to say they wouldn't stand a chance.
I'm not sure that the Ali that actually beat Foreman was better than the FOTC version. A bit better would be my guess, but not that much in it. So "not a prayer sounds like extremely strong wording imo".
The difference between the FOTC version and the '64 version was larger, that's true, and it's probably also true that Liston wasn't at his best that nigh. But FOTC Ali was still significantly better than anyone Liston beat, so I'd definitely give him "a prayer".
I don't think that Ali would've won in 74 if they weren't in the jungle. I think that massively contributed to him gassing out, I think he could have won in the USA
I agree that FOTC Ali was better than anyone Liston had beat, but the 59 Liston was an animal. I think he's stylistical poison for Frazer and Ali was too slow to keep up with Liston from the FOTC
Ali wasn't flabby at all in that first fight. He was 215lbs. He was quick and he was sharp.
Agreed on that 15th round. Just the punches Joe hit Ali with after the knockdown were brutal. Ali really showed one hell of a heart that night.
Well, the heat and humidity is what made Ali's plan A impossible, so I'm quite sure Foreman and all others would have seen it as something in his favour before the fight.
And even if the revisionist hindsight actually is correct in this case, it definitely is a myth that Ali needed for Foreman to tire to win. Ali was landing the cleaner shots in the early rounds as well, while expending less energy. It wasn't the heat that puffed George's face up, it was Ali's precise counters. And there was no fan in Ali's corner, to paraphrase Maxim, he was fresher because he didn't expend aa much energy as Foreman did with all his swinging and missing. Ali would always win a fight like that. Maybe it would take more rounds in the MSG, but he would still win.
Machen, with one arm injured, didn't have much problem staying away from Liston. I can definitely see FOTC Ali doing enough better than Machen to win.
So all in all, I just see no basis at all to say that FOTC Ali wouldn't have a prayer against these guys.
Maybe I went to far with the no chance. Unlikely seems better fitting.