Who's closer to being an ATG Miguel Cotto or James Toney?

Can't condemn a fighter because of suspicions

 

Good points,people love to throw the term "all time great" around

 

He was on the way to becoming an all time great until he let the Jones loss completely derail his career. it was a terrible mistake for him to fire Kallen and Miller

 

Havent condemned him. I agreed with you on that point. Holyfield is my favourite HW of all time, but there has been suspicions and if they were to be correct I would reconsider

 

Cotto is far enough behind Toney, I'm not sure the Mayweather win alone could get him there.

Whether Toney is or isn't is debatable. Cotto at this point definitely isn't. Probably HOF, but not ATG. (whereas Toney is HOF lock)

Maybe beating Mayweather and then avenging the Pacquiao loss? (maybe even dragging Margarito in the ring one more time to put a nail in the coffin and go up 2-1 historically). Then moving up and beating Maravilla would probably allow him to surpass Toney and probably even get into the ATG convo.

 

What has cotto done to be HOF?

 

He was already close by the time he left 140, and then had a couple of good welterweight wins. This little run at LMW is just icing on the cake.

You need to bear in mind that the HOF standards are much lower than ATG consideration. Think about who is in there. (of course, on the flipside you can point to who isn't but deserves to be...but it's a popularity contest after all - and Cotto is popular...)

 

You supposed to weigh their best wins against their most noticeable losses.
All you are doing is pointing out Toney's worst losses while conveniently ignoring his best wins.

Mayweather was landing something like 60% of his power shots each round. It's the reason the doctors started to check on Corley during the later rounds asking him if he wanted to continue. Corley lost that fight by a near shut out.

Morales was about shot after the Raheem loss. He also won the Diaz fight and got clearly robbed. I scored that fight around 8-4 to Morales
Please stop talking about fights you clearly know nothing about.

Why on earth are you talking about fighters which have nothing to do with this thread?

Alot of the losses on Johnson record are debateable and they tended to be
decision losses rather than brutal beatdowns from guys who could clearly bang like Mosley and Pacquiao

So according to you because he was a punching bag against Pacquiao, lost practically every round and was close to being stopped during the latter rounds then its a better win than Toney's win over Jirov.?
You have lost the plot

It is a win worth mentioning because a past prime Toney was able to beat a naturally bigger man. Jirov was clearly a top fighter as shown in that fight. He had no business moving up to hw and should of stayed at cw.

I discredit wins over guys who got koed six times by journeymen or guys who lost to 42 year old journeyman like malinga.

Jirov clearly wasn't a journeymen. He just had no business moving up to hw.

You know absoulutely nothing about Nunn's career and I have dismissed these points in another thread.

Nunn made his pro debut at mw during the same day weigh ins. He would of been literally 160 lbs come fight night. That was his best weight
By the time he was fighting at lhw he would of been around 185+ come fight night. He was fighting 25+ north of his best weight. He had no business fighting that high and clearly was not carrying the extra weight well.

He was also clearly past prime. This was highlighted in the Scully fight, where you notice him being more flatfooted and getting tagged more than usual. Al Berstein would then produce a list of stats which show that his opponents connect percentage was increasing.

The Nunn that fought Rocchiagain was a shell of the fighter who won the mw championship.

No
He made his name with his dominating performance against Tate and his first round ko over Kalambay

You were never a fan which is why you know nothing about his career

Of course he didn't. That is why he fought him twice at mw.

?????????????
You claim to be a fan of boxing, so why is it that you are constantly boxrecing?
Johnson was a damn good fighter due to his:
Footwork
Defense
Counterpunching

He clearly outboxed Collins and was constantly tagging him with left hook counters.

And you conventiately forget to mention that Toney was now fighting 4 divisions above his pro weight class and I said before in another thread B level wins are just ok wins, nothing amazing

Griffin outboxed Toney twice and Jones once. He had a solid amateur career and was trained by the legendary Eddie Futch

His downfall came when he fired Futch.
with Futch=undersizd lhw with a great fight plan
without Futch=undersized lhw without a great fight plan

That's because you hate Toney and are constantly looking for ways to put him down.

Still boxrecing I see.

Judah was a lot like post prison Tyson he was good as long as his opponent followed the script. Whenever he faced adversity he crashed and burned which is why:

he choked Nady after the kosta loss
He was basically showboating when Kosta caught him

Hit Mayweather with a lowblow and then a rabbit punch

Quit against Clottely hoping to get a points win

Quit against Khan faking a low blow

 

Rather than destroy every part of this post, I will just skim it and take it apart that way.
Cotto is also fighting 4 divisions higher from where he fought at his lowest weight.
You couldnt answer the questions on Jirov
You mention about mentioning fighters not related to this thread and then mention Tyson atsch
You told me that its the same fighter when it suits but now Nunn was a shell of himself against Rocchigiani

You mention fighters quitting and fail to note Toney tapping out at MMA and how he folded against Lebedev

Now to top it all off you have R Johnson as a borderline ATG :yep

You call so many world champs journeymen yet Jirov who was limited and slow was no journeyman to you.
So once again, what did Jirov do after losing to Toney and who did Jirov beat as a pro?

 

Toney was a great fighter and did some great things in his career and would have fought anyone though im not so sure everyone would have fought him.... but the 2 steroid things put a cloud over him imo and im a very big fan of his so is he hof worthy i think so but i wouldnt be suprised if he didnt get in right away either because of the roid things......Cotto hasnt ducked anyone and always looked to fight the best and i think he is def hof worthy also.

 

Let me peel back the layers a bit.... so you can understand. All time great is more than a few boxers.... there have been many and Toney is in the top 100. So when I throw out names like Duran, SRL, Robinson and ALI it's only because I know you'll have a better chance at knowing those names than a Sandy Sadler, Chuck Burley or a Willie Pep..:rofl

You are creating a very shallow pool for this ATG list you have in your head. It's a bigger pool... One that Toney has been swimming in for a long time. Your own poll only solidifies how ******ed you are... or at least you are when it comes to this sport.

All this bull **** about "shifting" and "moving focus".... **** all that noise. I'm keeping it simple kid... even you should be able to grasp the concept of PROVEN greatness and not some ultra complex spin machine you got going on just b/c James personality rubs you the wrong way. You're emotionally basing your assessment on James and blind yourself to his resume. Proof is in the numbers and James has them.

I can't even get on your level when you tried comparing Ricky Hatton to James Toney.:rofl:rofl:rofl Let's just move on before I embarrass you on this.

Are you saying that only the boxers who have been caught are the boxer that cheat? So you mean to tell me that ALL Olympic athletes are clean because next to none of the test positive? :think And you must live in a world full of pixie dust, unicorns and little faries, princess.:rofl

James Beat Sam the first fight without a doubt but he was a victim of a very bad decision. Again... the man is not and never was a real HW. He blew up and was only able to compete for two reasons..... He was by far the most skilled and technically sound fighter at HW...and the division as a whole was pretty weak. Whatever he accomplished at HW was a GREAT feat based on where he came from.

Lets look at PAC... his best wins were at the lower weight classes against the MEXICAN greats... MAB, EM and JMM. However.... his wins as he moved UP in weight were great as well based on being the smaller man, taking on BIGGER men who logically should have been able to beat him. Cotto isn't MAB...Ricky isn't EM and Marg ain't JMM... But considering PAC started at the minimum weight class and found him self fighting guys that weighed as much as 165 it's pretty ****ing incredible.

Let's keep this going...:deal I think I might be getting through kid... I hope some of this resonates with you because you are definitely NOT up to par kid.

 

Toney Period.

 

"Boxing Expert"??!!:think I like the sound of that but I'm not that big on myself. I know a lot more than you that I'm sure of based on our one sided debate.

I know a lot about the history of boxing and the "golden era" where Pep was one of the best boxers along with a slew of other great fighters... it was what they call "talent rich".

I could care less if you think James is a complete fraud, with no skills and bad table manners. I'm sticking to the script... if it's about substance and depth... Then Toney is an ATG. Just b/c he's had ups and downs doesn't mean he's only as good as his worse days. That's some simple ass **** to ride with and I find it to be a very interesting stance you've decided to take. You have a very intersting thought process to say the least.

I saw you took a very good fighter in Ricky and compared him to a truly great fighter in James... that's like holding a match to the sun and expecting to get a little shine.:rofl For real kid... Consult me on things like this so you don't come off looking borderline ******ed.. Just move off this one for your own sake.

James has been busted for banned substances and it has hurt his legacy but he's got a great foundation for his legacy before moving up to HW and getting caught with dirty ****.... It's like saying b/c Jones Jr tested positive, lost to Tarver and the russian kid as well as Glen that he isn't an ATG.:nut **** happens in careers... bad nights, upsets...ect. But the great ones come back from those bumps in their long roads to solidifying greatness and James has had a VERY LONG career and he's done a lot of great things even if he didn't give his all to his perperations.

Nunn, McCallum and Johnson at 160 to 168 compared to JMM, MAB and EM at 126 to 135 are fine... Different eras, differnt weight classes but They were all great fighters. You really have no idea what you are talking about if you don't have understanding of just how good Nunn was and how good McCallum was.

And what is "euro level".... is it anything like "Mexican level" or "Phillipino Level"?:huh Jirov was Eruopean but his level was "ELITE" at the time Toney faced him. This **** is just too easy...

One thing you need to know is that Roids don't do anything to improve skills or stamina. Toney has an abundance of skills and has been know to fade... so the roids James been caught with did little to enhance his performance and more to speed up recovery on injuries he sustained in fights or during camp.

ATG skills don't equate to ATG rankings but Toney has both so your argument is still "weak sauce".:yep You'd have a hard time punching your way out of a wet paper bad at the rate your going.