Who's higher P4P: Ali or Duran?

I have Ali by a smidgeon.

 

ali for me and im not being biased i love both fighters

 

Duran - He was proven fighting great boxers 20% heavier than his natural weight. Whilst Ali's style was great I'm not sure if he was as proven against men 20% bigger than himself as there weren't as many. Not great ones anyway.

 

I have Duran slightly higher.

 

Duran is the best lightweight, Ali the best heavyweight. Duran, however, was able to climb up the scale to achieve bigger and better things at weights far steeper in talent pool than the heavyweight division; lightweight, the steepest on of them all, for starters, then on to welterweight and middleweight.

 

Yeah, Duran beating Buchanan and Dejesus was a lot steeper than Ali beating Liston, Foreman, Frazier, etc. :nut

Duran was one of the best Lightweights of all time, but his Lightweight career doesn't compare to Ali's Heavyweight career, and you can't really jump divisions when you're that big, then again you don't need to, as Heavyweight is pretty much the only openweight division.

When looking at resumes, Ali holds the edge. Duran holds the edge in longevity. Normally I'd give the edge to the one who has fought at multiple weights, but I look at Heavyweights differently, seeing how they already fight in an openweight class and are capable of fighting much bigger men.

 

I'm picking Duran. Ali was often the same size or bigger than his opponents, hence his propensity to grap opponents around the neck and pull them down. Duran was often a naturally smaller fighter than many of his opponents. And any lightweight that can last with Hager..gets my vote.

 

This surprises me.

Duran and Ali are separated by more than a few guys. I don't see it as much of a contest to be perfectly honest.

--First of all, The LWs are probably the livest division in history. Duran ruled there in the 70s against respectable (though not great) competition. Head-to-head he may be consensus pick as the best ever -and look at his rivals: Benny, Barney, Henry, Pernell, Chavez, Ike, Gans, Canzoneri, Alexis, Chavez, Ambers, Montgomery, and yes, Ken, etc.

The HWs are probably the weakest division in history.

---Second of all, Longevity. Duran's career spawned 5 decades and doubled Ali's total fights. What was Ali doing at 37? Struggling against Leon Spinks. Duran was doing what has never been done before: defeat a dangerous and far larger MW champion in Barkley a full decade after his prime. Look at the tale of the tape for that one.

---Third of all, Accomplishments. Ali's list of conquests is formidable to say the least. A post here some time ago made the argument that but for Ali, Frazier and Norton et al., would not have been so glorified. I spit on that. Ali beat the beasts among the big boys in Liston and Foreman, avenged his loss against Frazier and Norton -twice, and beat several other good though not great fighters. But Duran... now that is something else.

Granted he was inconsistent after his prime ended but that was after 70 fights.

Nothing Ali did compares to Duran's defeat of Leonard. A LW champ dethroning a WW champ had not been done in almost 50 years. And that WW champ is among the greatest ever. Ali's triumph over Foreman is impressive, no doubt about it... but look at the stats. Ali was not so physically outgunned as cheerleaders like Ferdie Pacheco pretend. Duran, a natural LW, made a great stand for 15 rounds against perhaps the most formidable MW in history in Hagler. He took 4 titles in 4 division when past his prime. And had a few impressive stands when well into his 40s (what was really a win at age 45 against Camacho who was exactly the style that everyone said gave Duran fits, and Castro). Duran retired at 50.

---Fourthly, Adaptability. Ali was a supreme athletic boxer who relied on an iron will and good chin when his youthful advantages failed him. Duran was a pressure fighter who evolved into a boxer-puncher and later a counterpuncher as the situation called for it. He ended his career with wins against men in their 20s based on cleverness alone.


I'm not "hating" and I will climb a mountaintop and proudly proclaim that Ali is the greatest HW ever.... but the bitter truth is that the lighter guys are better. They are almost always more skilled, they are almost always better conditioned, and they almost always face better competition in a bigger field.

I'm not sure any HW has the real stuff to make it into the "top 10 p4p ever" but if one could, it would be Ali.

But he really shouldn't be ranked higher than Duran.

 

That is simply ridiculous. You cannot back that statement up.

In fact, I will take the opposite route, and say that the Heavyweights are probably the best divison in history. There are usually more HW's in ATG lists than from any other division specific division.

Guys like Ali, Louis, Lewis, Holmes, Marciano, Foreman, Tyson, Frazier, Liston, Dempsey, Johnson, Holyfield, etc would likely all be in a top 100 ATG list. Name another single division with as many.

If you're talking purely skill-wise, you may have a point, but I still disagree with divisions like the 108, 115, 122, etc throughout history.

Also, Ali's competition at HW was easily better than Duran's Lightweight comp. It gets closer on the grounds of Duran moving up in weight though.

Also, in this category, I think it's clearly Ali who holds the advantage, seeing as how he was able to beat more of the best with switched up tactics even while past his physical prime. Duran, on the other hand, was made to look terrible a few times by lesser guys during his prime, and was straight up schooled on a few occasions.

 

1. Sugar ray robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Harry Greb
4. Sam Langford
5. Roberto Duran
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Muhammed Ali
8. Sugar Ray Leonard
9. Mickey Walker
10. Gene Tunney

As you nan see they both make my top 10 with duran slightly higher though i would have no major gripes with ali being above duran

 

I cannot, eh?

Answer this question:

What was the average size of an American man in the middle of the 20th century?

 

Eh.

**** if I know.

 

Roughly 5'9 and 175 pounds. Train that man down to boxing condition and what have you got?