Who's more skilled: Ali or Usyk?

Why do LHWs have half the belts in Usyks "evolved" CW division? Jake Paul is going to get a title shot at CW in this era I don't know how you get a worse indictment than that.

 

transcend
verb
tran·scend tran(t)-ˈsend
transcended; transcending; transcends
Synonyms of transcend

transitive verb
1
a : to rise above or go beyond the limits of
b: to triumph over the negative or restrictive aspects of : overcome
c: to be prior to, beyond, and above (the universe or material existence)

2: to outstrip or outdo in some attribute, quality, or power

intransitive verb
: to rise above or extend notably beyond ordinary limits


I don't see the words 'flawless' or 'without flaws' in that definition, do you?

Your gift for understatement is unmatched. You might’ve just transcended the art of deliberate minimization...

...but not without being able to switch back to overstatement if the circumstances require you to.

 

Al

Louis is great but he had nowhere near the level of opposition Ali did.
Give Ali Louis career and he probably does about the same, beats everyone, wipes the floor with the buddy bears of this world, and loses against a Charles or a Marciano as a shot fighter. I don’t think it’s a given at all that Louis is above Ali in terms of greatness, h2h, or whatever.
They have somewhat different styles sure, they’d both feast on today’s super heavies, and both beat Usyk.

 

You mean Ramirez? Because hes a huge dude who cut a lot of weight to make LHW but his natural weight is clearly CW.

 

You’ve brought Norton up a few times, I could say Ali would never lose to a Schmeling, having a flaw in his style exposed in the process no less.
All the Frazier and Norton fights were after Ali’s layoff, and he still has a 4 - 2 record against them. Louis wasn’t fighting guys that calibre. Put Louis on that run and he probably does about the same there as well.

 

Yes but CW is HW. And he lost to Bivol.

 

Both men came up from lighter divisions, so they brought speed and knowledge from extensive amateur backgrounds. Ali had natural athletic ability that allowed him to do things outside of the rulebook because he could get away with it with his reflexes and movement, unfortunately he paid for it later on.

Usyk is a hard-working technician, who is defensively sound and has a unique awkward style - a southpaw, has an excellent chin but also defends it with movement and a high guard and also consistently stays in condition.

This current version of Usyk would be trouble for anyone but at his age he should plan out an exit soon, possibly a year or so. 2 more fights.

Like Marciano (who had a completely different style), stamina is a huge key to Usyk's success. At age 38-39 the body begins to break down or you lose something, an edge somewhere.
Some people say Lennox Lewis avoided Chris Byrd because Byrd was hard to look good against and Byrd was nothing close to Usyk, who would be a problem for any style.
Prime Ali vs Prime Usyk would be unique and evenly matched, Southpaw Usyk would have some technical advantages, and Ali would have the unpredictable edge.
The venue and the judges would also be a huge factor as it is a fact in boxing that both have an impact on decisions.

 

Louis only lost to Charles and Marciano because he'd lost his power.

Buddy Baer had a whole HOF length career in his early 20s.

You don't appreciate the greatness of the 30s and 40s HW division. In terms of depth its got Alis era beat bad.

 

I do appreciate it, I still think Ali beat better fighters than Louis did.
I wouldn’t favour anybody that Louis beat over Ali, I wouldn’t favour anyone that Ali beat over Louis in a one off either, but I think he’d lose a few, if he had Ali’s career. I can’t really choose one or the other as the best but that’s just me.

 

Norton was a really good fighter. Frazier was a great fighter. Both would have shined in Louis's era. They troubled Ali. They were supposed to. It reminds me of watching a basketball game while commenting about it on reddit. The other team gets to make plays too. Same in boxing, you're in the ring with someone with strengths and weaknesses of their own, not heavy bags or speed bags: I'll defer to Emanuel Steward:

So I think he was the greatest champion when it comes to the word “champion” but as far as who would have beat who, I think Ali would have beat him, and then I have a lot of respect for Ali because Ali was the only champion that I know of that fought anybody, everybody. It was nothing about styles. He fought guys who were terrible for him style wise, but Ali would just tell Angelo Dundee, “Let’s fight”—and he put him with a guy like Kenny Norton who was always going to be a problem because of the way Kenny kept his elbows, he blocked jabs and right hands and that’s all Ali basically had and then he fought him I think three times; Joe Frazier; he went to London to fight Brian London and Henry Cooper; and he went I think to Canada to fight (George) Chuvalo; he fought Karl Mildenberger to fight the German in Germany. He didn’t care whose style that he had to fight so in that way, Ali was the greatest because fought anybody, everybody, in their country, if it was a style that was bad for him he didn’t care, fight him in a rematch he’d do that, whatever.

Q: Who do you think represents the toughest style match-up for Ali when he was at his very best? A: You know, it’s hard to really say that because Ali fought every style there was and I think as rough as it was, would have been the guy he had so much trouble with—a little guy like Joe Frazier. If Joe Frazier would have been about I would say three inches taller and ten pounds more he would have really been a nightmare—but I think Joe Frazier because of the way Joe would go down, bob and weave, come out with a punch, but more than that Joe Frazier’s mental mindset. Joe had that same tough attitude that when Ali would try to do his psych stuff it didn’t bother Joe because Joe had the same type of a tough street attitude, too, and that was what made him such a big challenge to Ali. It’s just fortunate enough for Ali that Joe was not bigger, but Norton wasn’t mentally, even though he was bigger, he didn’t have the mental meanness and toughness of a Joe Frazier.


Ali could never just beat Joe with his jab and the right hand and that’s what made Ali I think great, also. At a certain point in the fights, in particular like the third and final fight, when he realized that his boxing skills were not going to take him to victory because he just couldn’t his rhythm together with Joe. He just said, “Oh I just have to fight, so every time I get hit with two punches I’ll try to throw four punches” and he did what he had to do to find a way to win and that was one of the unique things about Ali. When he found out that something wasn’t working he would just abandon the boxing skills, the pretty boy, and all of that stuff and just have to sit down and just outfight a guy and he had to do that really with Kenny Norton, I would say, the same thing, too. Norton’s style gave him problems but Norton wasn’t mentally, even though he was bigger, he didn’t have the mental meanness and toughness of a Joe Frazier.

Source: Heavyweight History With Emanuel Steward: Part 2 Of 3 • East Side Boxing • News Archives (https://www.boxing247.com/weblog/archives/127951)


Source: Heavyweight History With Emanuel Steward: Part 2 Of 3 • East Side Boxing • News Archives (https://www.boxing247.com/weblog/archives/127951)

 

I think this is absolutely the most sensible thing I've read on Usyk on this forum the last few weeks. I am so glad that Usyk came along to expose the delusion that old-time heavyweights couldn't compete with today's super heavies. Even I nearly fell for this delusion, the champion of old-timers that I am.

 

Alas, you may be right...

 

But, but, but, he's the Greatest H2H heavyweight in history! How could he not be? He mashed all the Super Duper Super heavyweights! He da only man eva who could possibly do that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Usyk is highly skilled - he is weak to the body and it's almost Mayweather like, the talent difference is so clear that he's able to win without really being tested.

AJ has no real head movement and whilst strong is not a natural composed boxer. You can see him crumble in slow motion. Dubois is strong, literally doesn't slip, move his head or parry much. Fury has a great combination of size and agility but has little work ethic and his showing against Francis tells you everything about where he's at as a fighter now.

There is a dearth of skill amongst these so called super giants. It's the smaller guys that demonstrate the better skillset and when we discuss all-time greats and we just hear 'more skilled', there's a consistent lack of actual demonstration of said skills.

Which skills are we talking about - footwork, agility, balance and ring position? Parrying, rear hand placement for jab catching/jamming? Elbow blocking or parrying shots to the body? Head, hand, shoulder or foot feints? Shoulder rolls? Pivotting off the jab, changing head slots pre, during and post jab? Rear hand leads? Pull counters? Doubling and tripling jabs, doubling and tripling rear hand shots? Doubling and tripling lead hand hooks? Throwing hookercuts, changing punch trajectory mid-exexution in response to an opponent's defensive attempts? Combination punching, punch selection and combination creativity? Hand checking, body jabbing, slipping both inside and outside jabs? Pivots, rolling, slipping and sliding, weaving under shots and cutting angles to escape being trapped on the ropes or in corners? Walking fighters onto shots, throwing shots on the half-beat of your footwork patterns to mess with their defensive timing? Use of bicep and under hook control to negate their punching opportunities in the clinch? Stance in the clinch and manipulation of head and neck to tire out your opponent? Framing off a missed punch and moving your opponent off-balance so that they cannot counter effectively?

Which skills are we discussing and to what level of opposition have these skills been demonstrated against?

All of these skills and many more I can reference from a certain fighter's career - then again, I've watched the tape and don't just refer to résumé or folklore.

The question becomes redundant in the context of what a real fight is, especially when there's no better combination of skill amongst the ATGs than Joe Louis and if skill is the sole determining factor, why isn't he clear and far away as the number 1 H2H HW fighter?

 

What I dislike about Mayweather's career - and his case for all-time greatness - is that he did not take the best fights in an era that was already thin on top-tier talent. I wish he fought Mosley, de la Hoya, and Pacquiao a lot sooner than he did. It would have helped to answer a lot more questions.