Who's more skilled: Ali or Usyk?

Why does Fury wear his trunks so high?

 

I hear you but PBF was up to fight anyone anytime - fighters avoided him IMO as it was a long night. When he moved to the Money Mayweather character, his choices are more questionable but it does take two camps to make a fight happen.

I think he's a genuine ATG, the greatest consistent defensive fighter on film (he demonstrates the full defensive skillset) but yes, there will always be question marks around how good he really was.

The very best he faced don't compare with the likes of Leonard or Gavilan or Saddler in terms of their ability and threat at the time that he faced them. Not his fault and he most definitely would scalp wins over some that rank higher H2H over a series of fights.

 

He could have fought Pacquiao earlier, no? Also, I recall there was some talk of Floyd fighting Mosley before Mosley moved up to fight de la Hoya, but Floyd's camp - contrary to Shane's - became unserious after a while.

 

The Pac thing - both fighters should share blame and genuinely, Floyd would have always beaten Pac for my money. It's a bit like Roy and Dariusz - should've happened but I understand why it didn't. At least they did fight and Pac should've pushed the date back for him to be 100% but that's the way.

I don't recall the exact timelines of Moseley but I seem to remember Floyd calling him out and no fight was made. Realistically, with so many belts, so many organisations, promotions, sanctioning fees, politics and strategic weight jumping, you can see why fights don't always get made when they should.

One of the best things about how things are right now is that Riyad season is pushing fighters together and they're being compensated well - as long as the best face the best, long may it continue (even if many of the so called best are boring, relatively adequately skilled boxers, rather than elite prizefighters).

 

I would slightly favor Floyd myself against Manny. But it's no definite thing in my mind (as opposed to, say, Duran vs. Arguello at 135), and I sure would have liked to have found out.

On the Mayweather-Mosley talks: I recall that I heard it in an HBO telecast from Lampley, Merchant, or one of the color commetators (Steward perhaps?) - likely involving either of these men. Basically, it was said that Mosley moved to set his sights on a de la Hoya match once he found out that Floyd's camp wasn't serious about wanting to fight at lightweight. For the record, I don't think Floyd wins if that fight took place when it was supposedly discussed, and I think the majority of the boxing cognoscenti at the time felt the same.

 

I would favor Foreman over Louis and no one from Louis's career over Ali. But when you are comparing the top 2 or 2 of the top 3 guys ever thats not saying much. Louis's era had(much) more depth than Ali, Alis was more top heavy. Alis era has an imposing top 10 or 15, Louis's has an imposing top 40, 50 and even beyond.

I touch on this often but the Foremans, Nortons, Fraziers, Jimmy Youngs, Lyles, Holmes and Shavers of Louis's career did not stick around to fight each other and compile ATG careers.

By the spring of 1942 8 of Louis's 10 best contenders had all left the division or country typically in their mid 20s. A 9th top contender Bob Pastor was gone later that year. He was 28. Primo Carnera and Max Baer are another 2 guys Louis fought before winning the belt who despite having long careers retired at 31 and 32. Baer was gone by early 1941, Carnera by 1937. And Max Baer was probably the Louis opponent that served in the "gatekeeper role" the longest.

In Alis 2nd reign Fraziers the only top guy who left the scene early without fighting most of the top guys. He retired at 32. Foreman left the scene in 1977 but he'd fought Ali, Norton, Frazier, Jimmy Young and Lyle. All these guys stuck around to have classic fights with each other. Louis's group didn't.

John Henry Lewis never reached his prime but if he had and if he could see I probably would pick him to beat Ali.

 

I would start a poll but i don't want to get mocked. If posters thought Manny Pacquiao is an unworthy challenger for Roberto Duran I can imagine how this hypothetical bout would go. You can imagine any version of John Henry Lewis you want. He's giving away forty pounds. Ali's not stupid, he might come in even heavier, like he did against Bob Fostet.

 

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/whos-more-skilled-ali-or-usyk.739554/page-2

Currently a majority of this poll think Usyk is more skilled than Ali. Are you telling me you defer to this judgement?

 

I don't think I even voted.. More skilled =/= better. That being said a Lewis- Ali poll would be a lot more lopsided than this one. I think Floyd Patterson was more skilled than George Foreman. Muhammad Ali said Floyd was the most skilled fighter he faced. On their best night George Foreman would send Floyd Patterson into space.

 

I'm not denying that. I might not even get one concurring voter. I don't care.

 

How is John Henry Lewis going to beat a boxer whose four inches taller, forty pounds heavier, has nine more inches of reach, has better reflexes, is faster of hand and foot, and has an iron will and chin?

 

Boxing rec says Alis reach is 3 inches longer. But no matter John Henry Lewis beat an opponent with a 14 inch reach advantage even if he needed a rematch to do it. He knocked out Elmer Ray who was 6'2 beat Braddock who was also 6'2.

How many opponents with an 88 inch reach has Ali stopped? Liston only had 85.

John Henry Lewis also has an iron chin he was only stopped by Joe Louis in his final fight. I think the guy who won 100 fights before he turned 25 while being almost blind might have more of an iron will than Ali.

I'm not even confident Lewis would win would really only pick him in his non existant prime with better eyesight but if one says "theres no one Louis fought who could beat Ali" well thats not really true. Theres a few more fringe cases I wouldn't pick to beat Ali who could beat him. Ali was not unbeatable and besides Foreman he struggled against most of the top fighters of the 70s the only HW era IMO thats better than Louis's H2H. The era Ali dominated was not better than Louis's. Ali was very lucky to have fought Foreman, Norton, Frazier, Young and Lyle and come out on the other end 7-2.

Besides Jimmy Young did Alis era of HW have any ATG level movers? Ali almost always had a massive skill advantage over his opponents. Besides Young whose prime was like one of them short lived stars the most talented pure boxer he ever fought was ancient Archie Moore. Well Louis's era had these types and those types had way more experience fighting guys like that then Ali did.

 

Ali was faster of hand and foot than Braddock and Roy while weighing 20-25 pounds more (that combination of size and speed is kind of important) and I'm pretty sure Patterson qualifies as a good pure boxer, as does Zora Folley.

 

They do and I forgot Patterson when I mentioned Archie Moore. Patterson was more of a nightmare for other guys his size then for guys much bigger than him. 71 inch reach is a little short. You really need to be fast with a reach that short. You'll notice among the better small HWs a reach that short is truly rare.

Folleys great don't think hes as a good a pure boxer as the Louisan guys.


I don't value 25 pounds all that much. I think weight classes being 6-7 pounds has messed up how people see weight. Not that it doesn't matter but we're heavily overvaluing how important x number of pounds are.

The thing to remember with Braddock is he could have weighed more then he did. Weighing that much he had a better 5 fight peak than a certain someone who won't be named. Not that he would have had a good shot against Ali I think he more goes the distance and wins like 2-3 rounds.