Great post my friend, not quite convincing but really well thought out and written. And you have a point about Mike being locked up...but for me he was already a changed fighter by Bruno I. It's been noted already that Mike didn't have the amazing defensive skills he once displayed after Rooney was canned. I'm sure prime Mike is literal hell for anyone prime for prime in the heavies. I just see him getting massacred by that Foreman uppercut, and I can definitely see Foreman pushing him off and then toward that uppercut again and again. You are absolutely right about how Douglas, Holy, Lewis beat Mike: early and then consistent Presence in regard to both handling him and feeding him punches. But to me Foreman didn't have to do that, he was just too strong and powerful. Just the wrong guy for Mike. I'm talking about 1973 George. Now, I wouldn't bet against prime Mike beating post-Zaire George. No way. Mike would have had his number imo.
That could be exactly right Swag - Buster was certainly well conditioned for the fight as we saw - and that lends to excellent recuperative powers - and we did see Douglas get on with it in the very next round. Certainly, the result couldn’t be reversed - because there is that more than fair contention that you’ve raised - that Buster, in all possibility, could’ve risen earlier if necessary. The thing with alleged long counts is, once they’re done, they’re done. We can justifiably highlight what we think was a long count - but, in most cases, we can never say for sure if the downed fighter couldn’t have got up earlier - so official reversals of results aren’t a fair option either - a rematch would’ve been best. I could add that Buster, of course, wasn’t at fault - he could only defer to the ref - but I’ll be cheeky and also say that it appeared Meyran was actually deferring to Buster - the count appeared to slow at the business end and it seemed Meyran made no effort to even begin a swing for the count of “10”. Not per seconds but per the ref’s count - Buster just made it up about 1/2 a real second after the ref tolled “9” - no attempt to launch a toll of “10” in sight - that’s if I recall it correctly.
Just rewatched and Douglas definitely seemed a lot less steady than I remembered. As the commentators noted, he was definitely still wobbly as he got up as the commentator notes. Would've been very interesting if Tyson had another even 30 seconds.
IF? Why so many IFs, BUTs or MAYBEs when it comes to Mike? I mean, IF he didn’t “do it”, let’s just invent that he virtually did - the old woulda shoulda coulda. Joe Louis had his “Buster Douglas” fall and came back from it - Big Time. No need to putty any holes in the Bombers career. We can take the good and the bad, no excuses, the net calculation still gives us a GREAT fighter who showed immense character. Remember, wisened old Cus put a lot of stock into CHARACTER. Mikey T should be (and is) thankful that he had Cus from the get go - do you ever wonder IF other fighters might’ve done so much better themselves if they had their own “Cus” micromanaging them and meticulously guiding them? Mikey T was a irrefutably a great fighter who had a great career - why is it so hard to deal with his material career without cherry picking the HLs and editing out the less desirable outcomes that don’t suit your mental construction? Lol, he ain’t sending Joe Louis to hospital. Far from it. Unless it’s Joe visiting Mike in hospital post fight to see that he’s okay. That’s a joke of course,
It was such a peach punch. Crazy. Mike at just 5’10”, Buster at about 6’4”, Mike lands this perfect uppercut, seizing the exact instant when he could reach Buster with it. Just one example of many testifying to Mike’s single shot power. When I saw that punch land in real time and Buster fall the way he did, I thought “Faarrk, Buster is done! So close but now so far from winning” No slight on Mike, I often root for the underdog - same on that occasion. I think Mike landed a couple of solid uppercuts in the following round also - and Busters body language indicated that he clearly felt them. Mike was definitely still trying and did show tremendous courage imo.
I agree. It’s why I never understood this “Tyson gives up at the face of adversity” when he showed plenty of heart in that bout. Out of interest I wanted to get your opinion on something else. When Tyson got knocked down, Douglas said he thought Tyson was going to get up until he saw Tyson putting his mouthpiece in and knew Tyson gave up then and there, because when a fighter is down and wants to continue they'll get up before anything else. The implication was Tyson was buying time to get himself counted out (either consciously or subconsciously) but I'm not sure I believe that. He was clearly intending to rise, and was actually in the process of rising when he missed it by literal nanoseconds. Some refs would've given him the benefit of the doubt imo. What's your take on it?
You're right, Tyson wasn't the same post Spinks. And you're right again, the uppercut might be Tyson's kryptonite. I just see Foreman getting tagged early and often. He'll be so wide open. Like I posted earlier, Foreman's best bet is to out slug Tyson but it's a herculean task, even for a prime Foreman. I don't think Foreman would try and emulate a style to stunt Tyson's offense, one that doesn't leave yourself open for counters. Pushing isn't the way.
I’ve never at all thought Mike was feigning to be counted out. He had just taken some titanic punches before going down. He was clearly discombobulated (great word, isn’t it?), clutching for the mouth piece but that was simply Mike prepping to rise and continue imo. An actual credit to him - strange that anyone could interpret that action as a demerit. Remember that poor dude who was still throwing punches while flat on his back after being knocked down ? I don’t think he was “buying” time to be counted out, lol, - he was simply on auto pilot reflex, no more, no less. Back to the Douglas fight, I also think that it was a TKO, not a KO, Mike made it up before “10” was rolled (albeit also a long count) I think Meyran waved it off - and at the moment, I don’t think Mike was any condition to continue. However, since he was Champ the ref might’ve given a few more seconds to check him out but I think he would’ve still made the call to stop the fight. I’ve said before, Tyson Fury seems to get a standard 23 seconds to recover (see Wilder and Ngannou fights) - Mike certainly could’ve done with that. All this is just imo, of course - there’s a lot going on in a fight and especially in such a short space of time when KDs occur - so it’s all naturally open to a number of interpretations. I think counts should be accurately timed per the clock - and they can fix on an average time usually allowed - say a real 13-15 seconds, then so be it - just as long as it’s uniformly applied and that the fighter is sufficiently privy to the count down, in visual and audio terms. If the count is acceptably clear in those regards, a fighter still not being able to comprehend the countdown kinda speaks for itself in terms of his viability to continue, I would think. As to fighters deliberately “allowing” for a count or stoppage, I can’t say for sure but I think Carl Williams pulled that one after the KD against Tyson. Carl appeared sufficiently cognisant but seemed to consciously refuse following the refs post KD instructions - however, the instant Randy Neumann waved it off - Carl immediately protested and indicated that he was okay to continue - lol. Don’t blame him. If Tyson dropped me like that I’d be saying **** it also. Even in the sanctuary of my own arm chair, I sufficiently empathise with all fighters
I can't speak for Pug but Tyson didn't know whether he was Arthur or Martha and his actions were just instinct with no real thought process at all going on - auto pilot....lights on but nobody home. Douglas himself dropped tools against Tucker in my strong opinion and he was on his feet and not remotely in the condition Tyson was.
Absolutely. However, I'm sure there would have been a few Tyson Fury fans just a few month's ago who would have claimed he'd have been Mike Tyson proof, not now of course.
You sure can, that’s more or less what I said also. And I also agree 100% with your take on Douglas vs Tucker. PS - I also think that Douglas could’ve at least arisen against Holyfield - but the glass slipper no longer fit his swollen foot.
