Yet again we agree on all counts Pug, and even a Tyson one!!!!!!! Definitely a quit vs Holyfield. He'd climbed his mountain, earned his millions and the fat lady was singing for him and his career.
Yeah but I don't complain when someone goes against the grain like you do- I'm obviously far less interested in this place being an echo chamber than you are and I post about Ali in thread about him of which there are many (there was even a thread about what he liked to eat a few weeks ago-and what a page-turning thriller that was!), whereas you turn many a chat into being about Holmes, regardless of the topic, hence my earlier post.
Lyle wouldn`t have taken the shots Tyson took from Ruddock and Tyson`s hands were far quicker than Lyle`s, but at 5`10 Tyson would always look human at heavyweight.
When I insult someone because of their scorecard in a Holmes fight, to the point where my post gets removed then we can talk. Untrue. This is the only post in quite a while iirc where I mentioned Holmes in a thread where he wasn't directly involved in (with the exception of my reply to you in the Briggs-Foreman thread when I mentioned him in maybe one or two sentences, in response to you bringing him up first) and I only mentioned him because Pug made a statement regarding Tyson that I feel can perfectly be attributed to Holmes as well.
Absolutely nothing to do with it LOL. Prime Mike Tyson was a phenomenal talent. I believe only a very select few beat him prime vs prime. And other than Foreman and Liston, the other select few would have their work cut out for them, that would would include prime Ali. Foreman and Liston would be a difficult match up for Tyson. They were physically powerful, could keep Tyson off balance, by muscling him, not let him set his feet, get his combinations off. They also had very powerful jabs. They also could get in Tysons head. Big bullies and real thugs versus a little bully.
I agree with your picking Foreman and Liston, but I'm wondering if you're discounting the incredible ring IQs of fighters like Holmes and Louis. I too see Iron Mike having trouble with massive punchers with extra skills on top (Foreman might have had the highest puncher's IQ in heavy history). But look at Douglas and Holyfield, who beat him with a consistent attack, movement, and doggedness. Any era of Ali until just after Zaire, Louis, and the 78 to 81 Holmes were better than either of those fighters on their best days imo (and I'm a HUGE fan of Holy).
Lyle took shots from Earnie shavers, oscar bonavena, and George Foreman. Quick hands won’t help if you can’t get within punching range.
We can still talk mate, I'm always up for a chat...and a row. . Also your claim above didn't happen as far as I can recall. I must have deleted a post, due to me thinking my 'Scouse' vernacular may have come across the wrong way.
Holmes and Louis had a tendency to get caught with overhand rights. Even in their prime years, also though Louis is possibly the greatest offensive heavyweight in history. He was seriously hurt and dropped by much lesser fighters than prime Tyson. Tyson was excellent with the right hand counter , which would seem he wouldn't be because of his height and reach, but his exceptional foot speed, and timing was his difference maker. I love Louis, but facts are facts, 170 lbs Conn had him reeling, Galento dropped him twice with hooks, that were telegraphed and he should've seen coming, Schmeling simply crossed over his lowered jab, until he koed him, he never adjusted to what Schmeling was doing in the 1st fight. Holmes also had issues with overhand rights as was seen in his fight with Shavers and Snipes. Also, both those fighters, ( Holmes and Louis) though they had very fast hands, ( Louis amongst the fastest in heavyweight history, fastest in terms of speed AND power) They were average maybe a little better in foot speed. This would make it very hard for them against prime Mike Tyson who had very quick feet. Neither had the foot speed, or intuitive movement of say prime Ali. Or close to it. Prime Tyson had a very short shelf life, as Emmanuel Steward said he would, by the time he fought Douglas, he'd stopped being a slick boxer-puncher, and became more of a walk in slugger. He simply wasn't the same fighter he was just a few short years earlier. By the time he faced Holyfield......... He was Earnie Shavers or Ron Lyle.
Best fighters he "could" beat: Jack Johnson: The first few rounds would be quite ugly. Johnson was a master of the clinch and used super spoiling tactics to frustrate opponents such as bicep pinching, shoving, holding and hitting, counters, etc. Tyson was the complete opposite and became irritable or even passive when he got clinched too often and lacked inside fighting ability (see the Mathis fight). However, Tyson was a tremendous body puncher and could deliver devastating short uppercuts and hooks at odd angles. Tyson eventually clips Johnson with something big after trailing the first 3 rounds, and puts Johnson in survival mode. Johnson clears his cobwebs and keeps Tyson honest for a few more rounds, but Tyson eventually breaks him down by the 9th in a very gritty war. Jack Dempsey: Hell of a brawl while it lasts. Dempsey would surprise Tyson the first round since it would be the first time he met someone just as vicious with sizzling hand speed coming right at him with no fear. They exchange furious blows and lump each other up with major swelling in just 3 rounds before Tyson drops Dempsey twice and the ref waves it off. Both guys look like they were jumped by a gang. Joe Louis: Louis gives Tyson serious problems early with his crisp, powerful jab. For Tyson to win, he'd need to prevent Louis from getting into a rhythm and gaining momentum with a consistent jab leading into consistent combinations. I think Tyson should be favored to win, but if he loses confidence and goes into his shell hoping to win with 1 big punch (bad habit), the fight could slip through his fingers. The rougher Tyson makes it, the better his chances. He'd need to hit Louis with everything but the kitchen sink the moment he hurts him because I can't see Tyson winning a decision unless he manages to drop Louis at least 3x. Rocky Marciano: Tyson storms out his corner and lands a barrage on Rocky before he can even warm up. Rocky is up on wobbly legs at the count of 7 and tries his damnedest but just can't do anything to keep Tyson from simply overwhelming him. Tyson TKO round 1. Patterson: Would be an interesting clash of styles since both use the peak a boo. However, Tyson is just too big and powerful and finishes Patterson in 4 rounds or less. Liston: Really depends on which version of both guys and their mentality. Liston from 58-62 was one of the most dangerous fighters who ever lived and he was filled to the brim with confidence in good condition. I think late 80's Tyson vs that version of Liston would be a sight to behold; like 2 silverbacks refusing to give ground mauling and slamming their hands ferociously. If Tyson can manage to avoid being backed up and kept at the end of Liston's jab, he can win. If Liston can intimidate or back Tyson up, the momentum swings in his facor. I wouldn't bet 1 cent tho as this matchup is pure chaos, but Tyson's hand speed could give him the edge. Outside of Liston's peak years, Tyson wins for sure and it wouldn't be close. 60's Ali: Can't favor anyone over this version of Ali to be honest. Ali wins a clear but competitive decision. FOTC Frazier: Very tough fight for Tyson. They'd clash ring center smothering each other's punches in a phone booth brawl that had everyone on their seats. Gun to my head, Tyson stops him in the 10th but he may need to get off the floor and dig deep to do it...and I'm not fully confident Tyson could do that. Of course it's possible Tyson manages to blitz and stop Frazier early with the ref needing to save Frazier from himself. The longer it lasts, the better Frazier's chance but he's bringing a knife to a machete fight. 70's Ali: Peak 70's Ali was perhaps from 73-75 or so. That version gives Tyson hell and may manage to pull off a miracle, but I'd slightly favor peak Tyson to win 65% of the time. Foreman: Ugly, bad matchup for Tyson. Foreman is the exact type of boxer who could ruin Tyson's momentum with his framing, shoving, uppercuts, and bludgeoning combinations. Foreman KO round 4. Prime Holmes: Same as their original fight, but a little longer. Witherspoon: He could give Tyson some problems at his best. A skilled boxer-puncher who could switch stances. I think Witherspoon might manage to go the distance and lose or get stopped late prime vs prime. Anything less than that and he gets steamrolled. Younger Holyfield: This is hard to call. Holyfield is bringing hand speed, foot speed, combinations, a fierce spirit, and good ring IQ. He would give any version of Tyson a hard time, but he did lack a little bit in the size and strength department in his prime. I think it depends on if Holyfield can get his engines revving and survive past the first few rounds. If he can, he can manage to outpoint Tyson. Bowe: Outside of a puncher's chance, I see Tyson winning this in a very tough and crowd pleasing fight. 90's Holyfield: Sorry but I can't see Tyson beating this version of the Real Deal. It's an ugly matchup and Holyfield had the perfect gameplan. Tyson having his hand speed and combinations from the 80's doesn't change a whole lot. He'd still be getting mauled, pushed back, and drug into deep waters from all the stinging combinations (not to mention the headbutts). Tyson has a slim chance of managing to catch Holyfield with something big to end the fight, but I wouldn't bank on that. Lewis: Bad matchup for Tyson. Lewis jab+grab+clinch+uppercut gameplan gives any version of Tyson nightmares. Lewis would not be arrogant enough to look down on Tyson or come into the fight unprepared or out of shape, but Tyson could have a limited puncher's window. More likely result is Lewis KO round 10-12 or UD. Classic fight. Vitali: Tyson wins an ugly lopsided decision in a frustrating fight with lots of inactivity due to the ugly clash of styles. Wladmir: Similar to the Vitali fight, I see Tyson mostly winning due to being busier and landing more clean power punches while Wladmir slows things down as much as he can with his big man tactics. A KO isn't outside the realm of possibility. I think Wladmir has a small chance of repeating what Lewis could do, but the difference was he was less durable and had less dog in him than Lewis to dig deep to win. I'd favor Tyson 70% of the time to win, but Wladmir's respectable power is a wild card in this matchup that's often overlooked. "Would" beat is a different story. Heavily depends on Tyson's condition and state of mind, along with the opponent and what gameplan they use.
Williams...? This has to be a forum meme at this point. Williams can get underrated but come on! Tyson would either give him the Pinklon Thomas treatment at best or the Alex Stewart treatment at worst.
