Who's the best pure boxer ever?

I think were getting a lot of things confused. SRR, along with Roberto Duran, are the BEST fighters I have ever seen when you take in skill and natural talent. But when just talking about skill, Neither deserves to be a top 10 guy. However, just because a guy like Ray Leonard, Eder Jofre, Wilfred Benitez, or any of the others had natural talents like speed or power, doesn't mean they weren't as skilled as Nicolline Loche or Willie Pep, who except some speed, didn't have those talents. I know it's very difficult to answer. So I'll try to be as specific as possible. Not who is the all-around best fighter ever, not the ones who only won because of skill, but who was the most skilled, whether they had those natural talents or not.
Maybe this will help some people to know what I'm asking:
For me it is:
#1. Willie Pep
#2. Pernell Whitaker
#3. Wilfred Benitez
#4. Niccoline Loche
#5. Benny Leonard

There's not much seperating these guys.

I'll check the thread in about an hour or two and see where it's at.

 

I actually find it hard to put someone above Sweet Pea, but I feel his reliance on his speed was just a little more than Pep's. Again, that doesn't mean he's any less skilled neccesarilly. Pernell might be my favorite fighter, he's the only guy I can watch over and over again and always be amazed by. The difference in skill level is so minimal, that no one's going to have the same top 5, maybe not even top 3. But when putting Pep at #1, I thought of who was around him at the time. This is also a very close contest, but I think Pep's advantages in boxing skill amongst his contemporaries is just slightly higher than what Whitaker's was above his. No problems with Pea being #1 though. Glad to see him at #1 with Pep at #2.

McGrain had a list of boxers who didn't make it. With the exception of Gene Tunney, I haven't seen much (or anything) on the older fighters, so I can't comment.
B-Hop is another one of my favorites, and I honestly don't think anyone is close to him in terms of ring generalship. In his prime he controlled practically everything his opponent did. I also would say he is the smartest fighter I've ever seen at finding out his opponent's strengths and weaknesses, and ways to exploit the latter and negate the former. It was tough to call between he and PBF, but I felt if I did a poll asking who was the best boxer, and left PBF out, all i would get for replies would be "Where's Mayweather," and then it would turn into a debate on whether he deserves to be included or not. It's already kind of happened on here, and I didn't want this thread to just turn into how good PBF was/is. I don't think Moore, Conn, or any of the others you mentioned, despite their obvious craft/skills, were superior to the 9 listed, though I really haven't seen much on Holman Williams, but have heard him called by some, in boxing terms "A scientific Marvel."

Quite honestly, I've made about 100 posts and 3 threads, but haven't taken the time to figure out all of the details about ESB. It's probably easy to do and I'm just not trying, but how do I get a pic in the avatar.

 

There are a lot of guys saying "Finito" Lopez. I've said previously that I considered him, but didn't explain why he's not in the poll. The reason is, while it's obvious that he was skilled in every department, I don't think he fought a fighter, with the exception of Rosendo Alvarez, that would require the kind of skill that a Sandy Saddler or Manuel Ortiz brought out in Pep, or a Julio Cesar Chavez, Buddy McGirt, and Azumah Nelson with Whitaker, or Roberto Duran, Carlos Palomino, and Antonio Cervantes (at 17 no less) would bring out in Benitez. I rate "Finito" higher on my ATG list than PBF due to his utter dominance of rounds, fights, and his whole division for 10 years, but even PBF had the kind of comp. to make a master boxer struggle a little bit. Not to say he wasn't amazing, but compared to the others, it can't be too hard to look the way he did against most of the guys he fought. He didn't duck anybody, there was just no real challenge for him in his career.

 

SRR was the greatest of all-time (though I would call a prime Duran the most complete fighter ever), but his skills were almost entirely offensive. He struggled to avoid LaMotta's jab, which was coming from a guy a few inches shorter than him with a shorter reach and no where near the handspeed. Offensive skills are a part of my criteria, but, while he did have defensive skills, most of his defense was his speed, his height, and the fact that few fighters are willing to punch that much against the greatest combination puncher of all-time who's almost gauranteed to be faster than them and hit harder than them. All-around skill, Robinson doesn't quite reach the other choices.

 

acb, you shouldn't have post the Whitaker-Ramirez II fight, your making me doubt my choice for Pep.

I'll still go with him, but I do have one thing to say about Sweet Pea. I think it was in the first Ramirez fight, but it may have been the 2nd. I once saw Whitaker slip a bodypunch. The old cliche is when you've got a guy who's hard to hit, go to the body, it's an easier target. Pea disproved that one (though he's the only guy I've ever seen do it). He was standing in front of Ramirez, landed two flush shots, and when Ramirez threw a right hook at his body, Pernell just twisted his waste and the punch went right by him. An absolutely amazing fighter to watch.

 

Ezzard Charles doesn't seem to be getting much respect on the polls. At least somebody voted for him (contradicting my top 5 I know, but I like that he got a vote).