Who's the GOAT at SMW?

lol, no he didn't. For a start there would had to have even been an offer. Jones however did repeatedly turned down genuine offers of a unification match with DM, so I can see how you got confused.

 

bailey,

:yikes

Collins had been retired for two years, and Grant's WBO belt was at 160 and wasn't relevant. The opportunity came up, because Roy wanted to fight a southpaw before trying to fight Reggie Johnson.

Collins had a the WBO belt at 168. Roy had beaten Toney, but couldn't fight Liles or Benn for the WBA or the WBC, so he moved up. There was no point in Roy fighting for a lightly regarded belt, if he couldn't get the others.

McCallum was obviously way past his best, but the point is, it brought a major title opportunity at a new weight. The fight was for the interim WBC belt, later upgraded to the full belt because Tiozzo had gone to CW.

So it's not really relevant if Collins was more deserving of a fight, or if he was a better opponent for Roy.

Roy's choices were:

Stay at SMW and fight for Collins's WBO belt.

Or move up to LHW and win a major belt, then look to fight the likes of Virgil Hill.

It was obvious which one he was going to go for.

Now if Collins had held a major belt at LHW, then I'm sure that Roy would have fought him.

It was a fight against a decent southpaw to prepare him for Reggie Johnson.

Are you not British? Did Collins not have British fans? The point is, from an Irish/Brit perspective, a fight with Roy would have been great. Because everyone had loved the Collins/Eubank/Benn fights. But outside of Europe, I don't think there was a lot of interest.

Who wants to see Roy fight Collins now? The fight would be ridiculed.

They were hard to make fights, because Benn and Liles were both Don King fighters.

He was willing to fight DM, Hopkins in a rematch, and Holyfield. So he wasn't the ducker that everyone makes him out to be.

Griffin at LHW was a bigger fight for Roy than fighting Collins at SMW. Roy wasn't interested in Collins's WBO belt, if he couldn't unify the division. It was better to move up and target Hill etc.

As above.

It was a bigger/better fight for Roy.

Because they were both King fighters, and Roy and Greg Fitz have both said that King wanted future options on Roy's fights. Also, The Levin's, who handled Roy back then, were also extremely reluctant to deal with King. King and Stan Levin didn't like each other.

As above.

I'm tired of typing this.

Kerry Davis VP for HBO, was under enormous pressure to get HBO a huge fight for Roy. He went out of his way to try and negotiate with Klaus Peter Kohl who was DM's promoter, and he was never available to meet either in person or via the phone. Then Davis came up with the idea of the double header, that was turned down flat. According to Murad Muhammad, DM wanted $6M to fight Roy, and was making between $1-1.5M for each title defence in Germany. Roy says that HBO actually offered DM $5M and it was turned down. Now if you look at DM's resume after he was stripped, it's pretty clear what his intentions were. Roy paid Brad Jacobs to meet with Davis and was up for the fight, as long as it wasn't in Germany. He'd had his fingers burnt in Seoul, and you saw what happened with DM vs Roch. Germany was notorious for bad decisions. Roy said in 2001 "I don't think a knockout would be enough over there."

No, Tiozzo had already gone up, that's why the McCallum fight was initially for the interim belt.

How can you fight someone, who doesn't want to fight you?

Harding was a huge southpaw and a decent fighter, as was Tarver. DM didn't fight them.

How is that the same? Dawson was weight drained and Ward stopped him, before he fought Stevenson.

DM didn't have a claim to all of them, and he turned down the opportunity to get them back by giving a bull**** excuse. He was too proud to fight on Roy's card, even though there was $5M on offer afterwards, but he was perfectly ok fighting Hall twice and De Grandis?

That's fine, if you think he won.

Ha! The old "adjusted back" excuse.

Listen, Joe dismissed Roy on TWO occasions saying he was shot, and a fight would be pointless. After he'd made those comments, the fight was worthless.

Joe had no problems with the weight, because he had a much better camp where he didn't have to starve himself etc.

It was a joke! It was done for the sole intention of gaining U.S. exposure, because he hadn't got enough when he was younger. Fighting a guy who finished 2nd or 3rd in "The Contender" with Stallone and Ray Leonard, to gain U.S. interest at 34/35?

WOW! That was brave wasn't it? Calling him out in a magazine? Ha! He called him out in a magazine, yet when Kerry Davis of HBO went out of his way to make the fight, Kohl was never available. Strange that!

More spin.

Kessler was Joe's biggest win at the weight to unify, but he'd waited TEN years, and Kessler is not a GREAT fighter.

Ward will move up. Joe had a 15 year career, and only moved up after 14 years at the weight.

What are you talking about? I said IF he'd have beaten him. I've given you two opinions, on two separate outcomes.

Of course I'm guessing, you asked the question. I don't know for a fact do I?

It depends on the outcome.

I suspect that if he'd have beaten Ward, and it was a close entertaining fight, they may have had a rematch.

Bute was injured and had to withdraw. I don't understand your point regarding Stevenson.

Joe could have moved up to LHW and fought in the same division as Roy, who was considered the best fighter in the World. :good

 

Kohl refused the proposal of it.

It was good idea to hype the fight, and to introduce DM to the American fans.

The fight was never going to happen in Germany.

So DM and Kohl knew that for the fight to take place it would had to have been in America.

What offers did Roy turn down?

Go to 6.20 of this video.

http://youtu.be/JWgQYK16wNQ

 

Now it was just a proposal . Jones turned down 3 offers. If you aren't aware of this how have you been endlessly debating this stuff for months :huh.

The fight was never gonna happen in Germany, which made more sense, because Jones refused it, then said he wanted $10 million. DM clearly stated he had no problem going to America.

 

What are you talking about?

Kerry Davis proposed the idea of a double header, which was turned down with a bull**** excuse, that made no sense.

According to Murad Muhammad, DM was making around $1.5M for each WBO defence in Germany, and actually wanted $6M to fight Roy.

In the video I've just posted, Roy says that HBO ACTUALLY offered him $5M and it was turned down.

So he turned down $5M to fight the likes of Hall twice and De Grandis for $1.5M instead.

How did the fight make more sense in Germany?

There was never a question of the fight ever happening in Germany.

Roy's fingers had been burnt in Seoul, and Germany was notorious for bad decisions.

If DM CLEARLY had no problem fighting in the U.S. then he'd have agreed the double header, and the fight would have taken place after. Look at DM's resume, he obviously DID have a problem going to America, because he never went.

 

People forget, that when Griffin was iced by Roy in a round, he was an undefeated world champion, a very high rated P4P fighter that had both Toney and Jones on his resume.. This was a big fight at the time, and it was a huge statement made by Roy.

Griffin at his very best was a good fighter, that was hard to figure out.. He was never the same after losing to Roy IMO.

 

Well let's consult the same table I used before, and just compare all three. (seeing as this is at least nominally a SMW thread; it would be silly to leave them out)

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I'm going to say light heavyweight > super minimumweight > junior light heavyweight during that period, overall.

It's very close between light heavy and super minimum - but not close whatsoever between super min and junior light heavy.




If we break it down year-by-year...

1998, top five in each division
105lbs: Sorjaturong, Siriwat, Matlala, Grigsby, Cordoba
168lbs: Liles, Calzaghe, Woodhall, Ottke, Brewer
175lbs: Jones, Michaelzewski, Johnson, Rocchigiani, Del Valle

Clearly LHw there.

1999, top five in each division
105lbs: Lopez, Choi, Alvarez, Siriwat, Sorjaturong
168lbs: Ottke, Calzaghe, Mitchell, Beyer, Brewer
175lbs: Jones, Michalzewski, Del Valle, Johnson, Rocchigiani

Stronger argument for SMW with the introduction of Finito and to a lesser extent Choi & Bufalo, but the same class at LHW is still a cut above. JLHW is simply too front-loaded; after Ottke and Calzaghe it's a pretty embarrassing list in comparison with the others.


2000, top five in each division
105lbs: Lopez, Choi, Siriwat, Mendoza, Alvarez
168lbs: Ottke, Calzaghe, Girard, Brewer, Tate
175lbs: Jones, Michalzewski, Harding, Johnson, Telesco

The first year SMW takes it. Harding and Telesco introduce some real weak links rounding out the five at LHW, and Johnson in his mid-thirties becomes in reality third best (even if only fourth ranked by the Ring) and becomes a conspicuous liability. 168 has also gotten even weaker. 105 holds steady, strong 5.

2001 , top five in each division
105lbs: Lopez, Choi, Siriward, Alvarez, Mendoza
168lbs: Ottke, Calzaghe, Mitchell, Echols, Brewer
175lbs: Jones (champ), Michalzewski, Harding, Johnson, Griffin, Tarver

Again it's 105 > 175 > 168 but LHW gets points for having a recognized man of the division plus a halfway decent top five under him - better than JLHW's, anyway. Echols? ICK!

2002 , top five in each division
105lbs: Alvarez, Arce, Mendoza, Siriwat, Dieppa
168lbs: Calzaghe, Ottke, Echols, Lucas, Mitchell
175lbs: Jones (champ) Tarver, Michalzewski, Harding, Griffin, Johnson

105 would seem to have gotten a boost from the addition of prime Arce (on a tear of great form, rebuilding from the humbling by Carbajal) but that gets canceled out by having a fraud like Dieppa. The loss of Finito is big, too - the likes of Alvarez, Siriwat, and Mendoza can't shoulder the load themselves. Light heavyweight is back on top. 168 is a shambles.

So 3-2 to LHW, narrowly edging SMW in a very tight contest...with JLHW annually on the lowest step of the podium.

 

I like how you broke it down..

Very impressive.:good

I simply don't know enough about SMW to comment on it..

But it would appear LHW was much tougher than JLHW during that period of time.

 

It absolutely was. :nod

SMW throughout its history doesn't have too many names that would be familiar to non-diehards (let alone your regular Joe casual) or even diehards who don't necessarily specialize in following the low end of the scale, but there have been a few...and two were indeed present in that period: Finito Lopez toward his career's denouement and Travieso Arce during the rising action of his. Then you had lots of fine boxers who played hot potato with the belts who certainly weren't elites or HOF material but solid enough to measure up in pound-for-pound terms against nearly all the JLHW's listed in that era besides Ottke and Calzaghe...and honestly many of the LHW's. Guys like Grigsby, the late Choi (RIP - another victim of the ring :verysad), Alvarez, Srojaturong etc.

Actually, each division seems to have followed the same pattern of having a pair of household names and then lots of "titlists" and tough contenders. The quality is deepest overall at LHW, even leaving aside the fact that its pair of household names are probably greater than SMW's or JLHW's. (and if you don't think Jones & Tiger > Ottke & Calzaghe and Lopez & Arce, then you must admit that Jones by himself > Calzaghe and Lopez...)

 

Very interesting.:good

 

Chris Eubank, flashiest flurries. Chris Eubank, sneakiest rights. Chris Eubank, stiffest jabs. Chris Eubank, shortest uppercuts. Chris Eubank, flashiest feet. Chris Eubank, trunks pulled up to chest and chest held up to chin. Chris Eubank.

 

A paragraph devoid of predicates. Bravo!

 

Can I remind you that P4P is a fictional thing made up by a magazine which has different ratings to other established magazines. Just one invented a rating.
D Haye a few years back won WBC WBA WBO Ring CW titles and the WBA HW title all within 24 fights and often away. That then was P4P material

 

You have to look at overall. Jones and DM were great fighters but so was Calzaghe.
Rocch at LHW had been beaten by Eubank at SMW with ease, yet was a top LHW and it was said on here how he was unlucky not to get a win over DM. We know Calzaghe handled Eubank, and went on to beat Jones, so that says alot. Rocch looked unlucky against DM, but lost to Eubank at SMW, so that does point to SMW being overall the tougher division.
Ottke had beaten Tarver as an amateur I believe and that wouldnt have been that long previously then

 

So Jones lost to Griffin who DM beat in 4 rounds. Is that what you mean?

Rocch won the WBC LHW title by beating Nunn. He was stripped and DM beat him then clearly in the rematch. That is where DM would have claim there. He beat the wrongly stripped champ