Who's the GOAT at SMW?

Bonafide · Jul 23, 2013

Calzaghe is probably the most overrated boxer in history who successfully ducked all serious threats until retirement. Ward would have destroyed him.

anton · Jul 23, 2013

Im not taking away anything frm joe im just say roy toney and ward are better

Mind Reader · Jul 23, 2013

Joe.Boxer said: ↑

Nope. I let you continuously pwn yourself until I had to spell things out to you - and you couldn't take it. You fell for something SO obvious that even a child would've picked up on . And you know it. You're a simpleton who DKSAB.

Thrashed? You self-destructed and got destroyed, just like I'd destroy you on anything boxing related :hi:.
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I am an adult, I talk through ****, I read what is on paper how it is, I don't put words in people's mouths.:-(

bailey · Jul 23, 2013

Loudon said: ↑

Part 2,
Why are looking at a specific time?

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You're getting ragged now Loudon. You gave times and when you did that I gave you facts about those times. You are trying to debate something you dont seem to know enough about and are relying on other posters to try and bail you out

If Joe had've been already based at 175 back then, he could have fought the likes of Roy and Tarver.

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He was a SMW dummy and this thread is about SMWs.
Why are you trying to build up Tarver? Calzaghe beat the fighter that thrashed him just one fight before

A fight against Roy or Tarver would have been bigger fights than Lacy or Kessler.

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Not then it wouldnt. what dont you understand and I will spell it again for you, so maybe you can take it in.
Roy was trying to rebuild and not yet back rebuilt after 3 losses then. Tarver had lost to Jones and Johnson, and once again Johnson lost to Sheika that Calzaghe beat to put it in perspective. They were not as big a match ups (Johnson/Tarver) as undefeated Lacy and when Calzaghe fought Kessler, Tarver had been totally dominated by Hopkins.
Can you comprehend it now? Its becomin exhaustive keep schooling you

But you've got an obsession with undefeated fighters haven't you?

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Not an obsession at all, but an acknowledgement that If a fighter has not been defeated and nobody has found a way to beat them even when mixing in world class, then they deserve credit

Kessler was the bigger fight according to you, because he was UNDEFEATED!

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A live gate of over 60k answers that one

Then If I ask who against, you'll give me boxrec stats on Andrade, Beyer and Mundine etc.

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All of which have beaten a SMW world champ. Good call

If Joe had have made a name for himself at 175 earlier, he could have fought Roy after he came back from heavy instead of Tarver and Johnson. There's a whole load of possibilities.

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There are no guarantees for that, and this shows how deluded you are. So you are saying go up to LHW because Jones is at HW looking to fight Tyson, but he might fight you if he drops back atsch. Get a grip Loudon

Woods fought Roy in 2002, in his last mandatory before he went up for Ruiz.

He had the opportunity to go to America in 1999, but he turned it down and told everybody that he didn't want tough fights.
Joe could also have been in that same position instead of Woods.

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Wrong again. Woods had been a LHW for a very long time and finally got a shot years later. Calzaghe was a SMW champ. Big difference that even you could tell.
I think this tough fights thing is blown away by the names on his resume like Eubank, Reid, Jones, Mitchell, Lacy, Kessler, Jones, Hopkins etc.
You also ignore how Jones was called out on live tv to America, or maybe you chose to ignore that fact also as well as the one where Jones was going to drop back to SMW around the time Calzaghe fought Woodhall, and you have seen that link, how many times?

Ha!

You've pawned me how?

I said "The 168 division was a stepping stone."

It's completely irrelevant how long they stayed.

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You just pwned you here. Stepping stone and then irrelevant how long they stayed there when given facts

Nunn, Toney and Roy, stopped at 168, before going up to 175 and beyond.

That's a FACT!

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But a bigger fact is that Nunn and Toney were at SMW longer and Toney went to CW after no real success at LHW.
You pwned yourself Loudon and now look daft trying to waffle out

Roy COULD have stayed at 168 for many years, but he decided to move up.
HE PASSED THROUGH!

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You got that right, passed through and missed, Benn, Eubank, Collins, Liles, Calzaghe, Ottke and went to LHW where he passed by DM

Roy went on to unify at 175 and to then went on to fight at HW.

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But didnt fight the man in either. Funny you dont note that

Did Toney end up at 175 and beyond?

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Whether he did or didnt, doesnt mean he used SMW as a stepping stone. You are trying to alter what you said earlier when your points were ruined

Did Nunn?

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Did Nunn what. It wasnt a stepping stone if he was at SMW longer than LHW was it now! Another point blasted away

Yes, he clearly AVOIDED him earlier, only to fight him when he was older and then asked him for a rematch.

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Where did he avoid him? Was Jones at SMW suddenly or was Calzaghe a SMW and Jones a LHW? Jones was a HW in early 03 and Calzaghe was still a SMW at the end of 07. Do you think that 4 years was to avoid Jones

Less accomplished Tarver?

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Yes less accomplished.
You said that Jones was not the same after dropping back from HW, yet that version beat Tarver. Tarver lost to Johnson who Sheika beat to fight Calzaghe, whilst Calzaghe was a world champ in double figure defences with names like Eubank, Mitchell, Reid, Woodhall, Brewer, Veit, Lacy on his resume to go with Mkertchyan, Sheika, Starie etc
Overall that is far more accomplished

Tarver had beaten Roy and had taken all his belts at 175.

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All what belts? Vacant IBF and vacant WBC titles. Winning vacant titles against a fighter who was on the way down and not beating a top LHW isnt really as good as you make it sound because that was where Tarver was

WHAT HAD LACY DONE EXACTLY?

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Been a winner of 5 world title fights beaten top 10 world rated SMWs in Vanderpool, Tsypko, Pemberton and Reid as well as Williams and Sheika.
Young undefeated world champ favoured to win

Joe would never have had the bollocks to go up to CW.

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Possibly not, he didnt have the build to carry the weight I wouldnt think, but also lets not forget that there were question marks surrounding Toney which you dont note

He tried to pull out against Lacy, so he would hardly have taken on a guy like Jirov would he?

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Calzaghe did pull out against Lacy, he did against Jones before the fought as that fight was delayed due to a Calzaghe injury, he pulled out 3 times against Sheika, he was injury prone with bad hands, but he fought them in the end and won
Guy like Jirov? What had Jirov done. Tell me Jirovs 5 best wins please. Get ready for this.
Thats right please tell me Jirovs 5 best wins? Cant wait for you to inform me

So he wasn't an already established world class fighter then??

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Tell me what Toney did at LHW that was world class?

Joe didn't know anything about Lacy and Kessler before 2004/2005 did he?

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I dont know. Do you or are you guessing about something?
So what if he did or didnt.
If you are going to go on about LHW, I wouldnt because I make you look silly when I have to
Problem was 2004 didnt have many big LHW fights.
Jones was being beaten twice.
Tarver was losing to Johnson who couldnt beat sheika that Calzaghe beat, so LHW was looking weak until Hopkins became the man again.
DM had just lost to Gonzalez and gonzalez had been in a disputable fight with G Johnsonwhich once again shows Calzaghe was in the tougher SMW division.
So as above 2004 wouldnt have been a good time to go to LHW because there wasnt a dominant champ like Hopkins, and thats what calzaghe did, go up and beat a dominant champ

But this thread once again is SMW
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bailey · Jul 23, 2013

Loudon said: ↑

Carl has got relevant fights at 168.

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So you imply Calzaghe hasnt yet Carls biggest win is a fighter who he beats in a tough fight when past best that Calzaghe beat when prime and undefeated. Got it

What has that got to do with what I've typed above?

Carl's circumstances are different.

Also, Joe vs Starie, and Joe vs Woodhall weren't BIG domestic fights, that had huge interest.

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Yes they were. You obviously were not watching.

Groves has only done similar to what Starie had when Froch is at a later stage in his career then Calzaghe and Woodhall had done much more and was a top 5 SMW and former SMW world champ who had done far more. Thats a massive difference.

Yeah, everything revolves around Joe!

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So you couldnt answer when I gave you details of the fighters and era and you couldnt answer and just gave this reply. shows you have been owned again.

i will type it again to give you another chance below

People care about the division because of calzaghe and the S6 because of the void Calzaghe left. People only care now if they are taken in by the fact that for the first time in a while there is an American champ competing at the weight, even if they are leftovers and leftovers of the previous champ in Calzaghe. Mitchell, Eubank, Reid, Woodhall, Brewer, Veit were not nobodies, they were SMW world champs with good resumes that each would get in the current top 5 of today with the better resumes.

I also believe that had Carl had been in Joe's shoes in the late 90's, he would have gone up to 175, instead of staying at 168. That's my honest opinion.

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Thats all most of it is with you. Your opinion and whe given facts you think you are debating a fact by your opinion when facts have already been laid out. This is why you get owned so often

If Bute had beaten Froch, I believe he'd have targeted Ward.

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He was, Ward didnt seem to eager, so he fought Froch in the UK

I don't think Ward ducked Bute, I think he wanted a break and a few easy fights after the tournament to let the fight build up.
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It didnt need building. Yes Ward had fought Kessler and Froch which is better than what Bute had done, but Bute had beaten more top 10 SMWs and made more defences and looked better against common opposition

The division has more interest in it now, than what it did when Joe was in it.

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Possibly but I have shown you it is weaker, but yes the division has US interest because Ward is a world champ in the division and the US hasnt had a dominant SMW before. Jones never cleared up and Ward is able to clear up on Calzaghes leftovers, but that does highlight the division is not as strong as previously.

Calzaghe created the interest in the division

Groves haven't proved much like you say, and I agree with you.

But they are popular fighters, and there's more interest in them than what there was in Reid and Starie etc, and that's not been disrespectful to those fighters.

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Groves more popular now than Reid was .

Groves is one of my favourite fighters at present, but he is not more popular than Reid was as a world champ. You really havent got a clue if you think that. Reid was built as a big sky sports fighter then when sky had big boxing shows

Starie in your opinion, might have been better than Groves,
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I havent said better at all. I think they are of a similar level in the fights with Calzaghe and Froch respectively

but nobody in 1999 would have paid PPV to see Joe fight the likes of Reid or Starie, with that being the main event
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They were co main events on PPV dummy and back then the PPV shows were bigger broader shows, but if you watched them live back then you would know this. Some of the PPV shows then were over 8 hours long unlike todays. There was a difference. I guess you didnt know that either?
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bailey · Jul 23, 2013

Loudon said: ↑

Yeah?

Why do you keep asking me questions about Hopkins at 160 then?
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Keep asking?
I think if we look at how much you have mentioned LHW compared, I dont think you would be laughing
Show me where I have mentioned Hopkins and I will show you where you ahve gone on about LHW.
Lets do it and compare

anton · Jul 23, 2013

Froch will crush groves he is too green. Kenny anderson had groves seeing stars froch will lsy him out

anton · Jul 23, 2013

Froch wants no part of ward he know he cant win. Ward would beat him again just bad style for him.

bailey · Jul 23, 2013

Mind Reader said: ↑

I am gonna have to contact the Team Elite executives and enlighten them about how you have been severly pwned over and over again.

I am sure they will have you sweeping street corners by the morning.:rofl
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This is a Team Elite executive here *****.

Joe.Boxer has battered you and Loudon so severely, you obviously dont know what you just typed.
Joe.Boxer is arguably ESBs most respected poster and a highly educated boxing historian that has brutally pwned bad poster after bad poster.

He can add Mind Reader and Loudon to his victim list

anton · Jul 23, 2013

Anyone who knows boxing come chat. I like a good debate

anton · Jul 23, 2013

These clown know **** about boxing

anton · Jul 23, 2013

Ward just beat dawson at lhw why would he be scared of froch in the uk. Talk sense

Loudon · Jul 23, 2013

bailey said: ↑

This is a Team Elite executive here *****.

Joe.Boxer has battered you and Loudon so severely, you obviously dont know what you just typed.
Joe.Boxer is arguably ESBs most respected poster and a highly educated boxing historian that has brutally pwned bad poster after bad poster.

He can add Mind Reader and Loudon to his victim list
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I've never seen anybody tie himself up like that clown. Ha!

Loudon · Jul 23, 2013

bailey said: ↑

Keep asking?
I think if we look at how much you have mentioned LHW compared, I dont think you would be laughing
Show me where I have mentioned Hopkins and I will show you where you ahve gone on about LHW.
Lets do it and compare
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You've asked me various questions about things that have nothing to do with 168, but I'm not crying about it.

I've mentioned 175, because it's relevant to this topic.

Joe had the chance to fight there, but he turned his back on it. Now, if he had have gone up, he may not be classed as the greatest ever 168 fighter, but he may have had a better career overall.

It's something to think about.

Mind Reader · Jul 23, 2013

bailey said: ↑

This is a Team Elite executive here *****.

Joe.Boxer has battered you and Loudon so severely, you obviously dont know what you just typed.
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Oh I know what I typed, and I made him look foolish.:yep

Joe.Boxer is arguably ESBs most respected poster and a highly educated boxing historian that has brutally pwned bad poster after bad poster.
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Thats a good laugh. What is pwning? Resorting to gay slurs?atsch

He can add Mind Reader and Loudon to his victim list
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Joe.Boxer was clearly the victim.:good

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