Whos the greater fighter SRL or FMJ

Leonard

Context is everything

Floyd has the glossy record

 

Not sure this meets your criteria as evidence, but this site details recorded on the night weight increases - http://basementgymboxing.blogspot.com/2014/01/fight-night-boxing-weights-list-of.html

I don't think SRL would have been making SFW at any point into his 20's if he was born later and started boxing today. 130 - 147lbs is a 13% increase. There some increases of around that scale cited, but the majority aren't as great as that.

 

Interesting site, but the fighters who fought in day before and same day didn’t drop down when the rules changed and the weigh in and in ring weights are unavailable from the 1980s.

 

Yeah, I suspect you're right that typically fighters didn't drain & rehydrate to the same extent they do today, when day before weigh ins first became commonplace.

The focus on, and techniques to support, more extreme dehydration and rehydration, have definitely enhanced the further we've got into the day before fight weigh in era.

 

I’m saying they weren’t comfortable dropping a weightclass when the rules changed and that the rules changed to protect them, since fighters were already draining for same day weigh ins during the 80s.

 

Both those points are true.

I'm pretty confident the average world level SFW, for example, is heavier in the ring now than the average world level SFW was in the 80's.

 

Ha, ha, You're trying to twist the argument because you're losing?

You know full well that some combat athletes today shed up to 15% of their body weight in water weight before weigh-in. That is a fact and that's what Leonard at most would have to shed to get down to 130. Clottey was 169 lbs in the ring once when competing at 147 and Maidana was 17 lbs heavier than Floyd, who came in to the ring at 149, 150. Costa and Perreira in the UFC rehydrate from 185 at weigh in to ca 215 at fight night. That's pretty much the same percentage that Leonard would need to cut to get down to 130.

So cuts of the size Leonard would need to get to 130 is done. And no one has died from them. Don't think he would cut that much, though. But it is of course nonsense that it would kill him.

135 wouldn't be a great stretch for someone his size, though.


So saying that it would kill him to get down to these weights, especially 135, is silly. That's all and I'll leave it at that.

 

I'm not twisting anything. You're being combative because you're unable to find examples of fighters dropping weight after day before weigh ins became standard.

Floyd finished his ams and teenage years at 126 and rose a weight to 130 to turn pro.

Leonard finished his am career and teenage years at 140 and turned pro at 147.

If you fail to see the parallel here, you have my sincerest empathy in your quest to navigate society because it must be an unfair challenge.

Corrales ko1.

 

Yes, but the difference between entering the ring at 139 now and 136 in the 80s isn't enough to place fighters in different weight classes. 80s is modern era. Idk if they cut and rehydrated the same way in 1925.

 

Lets look at the numbers first. SRL 20yr career / FMM 20yr career. SRL 36W 3L 1D / FMM 50W 0L 0D. SRl 25ko / FMM 27ko. SRL 5 title defenses / FMM 15 title defenses. SRL 6 World titles / FMM 12 World titles and 15 championships. Based off the numbers FMM by landslide!

 

everything Leonard did, Floyd did better

 

He did not have better offense or finishing ability than Leonard

 

I'll give him that. He had a stronger offense when needed and longer sustained flurries

and although i dont have him actually beating Hagler, his offensive spurts were impressive.

He minded me of a young Roy Jones and such versatility! Probably his best all around performance

 

Starting at the most recent fight and working backwards, the first SFW fight on the "fight night weight" link I posted to you, we find:

Machado - Official = 130lbs; Fight night = 145lbs
Mensah - Official = 130lbs; Fight night = 138lbs

I seriously doubt it was common for SFW's to be 138lbs in the ring during the 80's. No chance c.145lbs was commonplace then, imo.

It should be noted that of the several dozen fight night weights recorded on the link I sent you, there are examples of both greater % increases than Machado's and lesser than Mensah's.

 

This conversation is getting so detailed I think I am going to have to retire, the ref has given me one more round though so I will leave with some final thoughts before my corner waves the towel. Firstly love all the posts, I have learned a lot about both fighters. My first click on the pole was Leonard without a second thought. I admit I am an old git and a child of the 80s so naturally biased. After going through 10 pages of intense chat I have swayed back and forth!

I think my final thought is that Leonard for whatever reasons managed to have his signature fights at the perfect moments in his career which enhanced his legacy (perhaps incorrectly) while Mayweather I think has suffered because modern boxing match ups take so long to arrange and so much money and legal wrangling that fights happen several years after they really should have.

On the flip remember Leonard was retired (apart from one fight) between 82-87, this is a big chunk of his prime and I feel we would have a different overall picture of his abilities if he had fought during those years. As pointed out apart from the mega fights Leonard has quite a few less fights against interesting opponents and I think his legacy would be fuller in this respect with those years back. I also agree if he had fought and won a return against Hagler or won Hearns II his legacy would be almost perfect.

Some younger posters (not being patronising!) forget that Hagler, Duran and Hearns had a huge terrifying auras at the time, they were viewed with awe as perfect fighting machines. Hagler was viewed with dread with his menacing bald pate! Duran and Hearns were viewed as lethal assassins and had plenty left in the tank post Leonard to build to their legacies while Hagler wasn't that past it, he was slowing down but his performance against Leonard shows he was not on a Holyfield level career slide.

I simply do not think De La Hoya, Mosley, Alvarez, Hatton, Cotto had the same level of awe as Hagler, Duran and Hearns did at the time. Maybe Pacquiao did. I maybe totally wrong and I am happy to be corrected on this.

I can only report how things were back then, the level of excitement and hysteria generated by these super fights was immense. It is like the difference between how people responded to the Beatles vs Oasis. Both great, both huge but one was a cultural event that crossed over from mere entertainment. The other thing is Leonard's fights vs Hagler, Duran and Hearns lived up to expectations as some of the greatest of all time, for excitement and for techniques. Mayweather's big fights simply do not stand up as entertainment, virtuosos displays of genius but not ATG fights, again IMO. It is unfair but that will always affect a fighters legacy. I am a huge Pernell Whitaker fan but I am the first to admit I don't watch his fights for thrills and this will have affected his legacy amongst more casual fans.

I am probably running into trouble here but from going through the "is Joe Calzaghe underrated" thread I see similarities to the responses on here re Mayweather's record. Both undefeated, both having their ATG wins later in their careers. Some see Joe's 46-0 record as a testament to his ability, others see it as proof he fought bums. Many see his wins over Jones and Hopkins as hollow victories. Don't get me wrong Mayweather is a far greater fighter than Joe, with all due respect, but I saw some interesting parallels.

I am now going to look for all the threads of Mayweather vs Hagler, Duran and Hearns as fascinated to see what people think about these H2Hs!