Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Joeywill, Jan 5, 2023.
As they absolutely should.
Corrales was a great win and a great performance.
Cotto was a fine fighter, and both he and Floyd were past prime when they fought.
Floyd never beat an ATG fighter in their prime.
Cotto wasn’t in his prime. Again, he’d been bashed up by Margarito and Manny earlier in his career. He was also never a legit MW. He just saw an opportunity to take a free hit at a faded and injured Sergio Martinez.
Oscar wasn’t in his prime. He was faded and had been inactive. He then retired the following year, after an awful performance against Steve Forbes, before then being hammered into retirement by Manny, after looking ill at the weigh-in, where he hardly rehydrated any weight.
Canelo wasn’t in his prime. He could barely beat Lara and Trout at that point.
Wilfredo Benitez is considered an ATG by many knowledgeable fans, fighters and historians etc.
Not taking issue with your whole post, just this part where what I know/understand may be useful to pop in.
A fighter needs maximum volume of the steroid present when you are making maximum effort for maximum result. If you had cleared your system of hormones/esters (fully clear system) before you fought, you'd train and perform like crap. It's closer to the opposite schedule, actually. Do rec. drugs and maintain baseline TRT throughout the year and add in sport specific drugs on top of the hormones during your fight camp when you are needing maximum benefit. That being said, I don't think testing was the issue as both actors would have access to techniques/compounds that could probably beat both test protocols proposed. The timing could be interesting as perhaps one actor had a hard to hide supplement in their regimen they liked to drop in x weeks before a fight to be optimally hitting at fight time.
HOF for sure, but not ATGs.
Not in my opinion.
Manny was a buzzsaw in his prime. So he’d have given Floyd a tough fight stylistically. But I’ve always believed that Floyd would have beaten him. Especially with his great speed and his huge reach.
What’s your take on Floyd’s IV, with his excuse which wasn’t in any way believable?
Anybody else who’s interested.
Let us look at Canelo in more detail, where you can give me your honest opinions on a few hypothetical scenarios.
This is not designed to criticise him. I am honestly a fan of his skills. Again, I was in a minority who defended him when he was being slammed for wanting a rematch with Bivol.
I just want to gauge where you think he’d have fitted in, both in the 90’s and 00’s, to see and understand why you both rate him so highly.
As far as I’m concerned, although he’s a great fighter, he’s honestly no better than guys like: Roy Jones, James Toney, Mike McCallum, Bernard Hopkins, Andre Ward and Joe Calzaghe. And most of them aren’t on many top 20-30 lists.
Now let’s take the versions of Canelo who fought/fights at JMW, MW and SMW, to see how he’d have fared, had we have dropped him into the mix in both the 90’s and 00’s.
I’ve chosen those time frames as that was my personal favourite era of boxing, which I lived through.
If anyone wants to do other comparisons, then that’s fine.
IMHO, Canelo is only as popular today, as he’s fighting in a weaker era than some of the previous eras, whilst we live in a social media world where he gets a lot of exposure.
In other eras, I don’t think he’d be so highly though of.
At JMW, how would he have fared against the best fighters of late 90’s-early 00’s:
(To be fair, you can only look hypothetically at the specific versions of Canelo who fought at JMW. So you’re only looking at the versions of him who fought Floyd, Lara, Shane, Smith Trout etc)
At MW, how would he have fared against the best MW’s of the 90’s:
(As above, the specific versions of him who fought at MW, against the likes of GGG)
At SMW, how would he have fared against the best fighters of the 90’s and 00’s:
(The current versions who’s recently cleared out the division, against the likes of Plant, Smith and BJS etc)
We can omit LHW, as he’s only had a handful of fight there, the most recent one being his fight with Bivol. Some people claim that it was a cherry pick gone wrong. But personally, I’m not sure. And I gave him huge respect for taking the fight, as I will again, if he takes the rematch.
Please give me your honest predictions.
I am genuinely interested as to how you rate him as one of the greatest fighters who’s ever fought.
I’ll look forward to seeing the results.
If anyone is interested enough for me to put it in a separate thread, then that’s fine.
What is your qualifications for an ATG because Benitez makes the cut but not Cotto? Corrales either? Is there a list of ATG that has a cap so there could only be a certain number of ATG.
Maybe the conversation is where on the list of ATG do these fighters rank.
For example FMM ranks higher than SRL on the ATG list.
I use traditional criteria, where I focus mainly on the overall ability of the fighter whilst they were prime, and who they fought and beat, and how they fared etc.
IMHO, a prime Benitez was just a better fighter than a prime Cotto.
You could certainly argue that Cotto had a better career though, as it’s widely known that Benitez faded quickly, mostly due to the terrible mismanagement of his father.
The version of Benitez who Ray fought was just a great fighter.
He was so good, he gave Hearns a good fight, just based solely on his skills, as he couldn’t overpower him like Leonard did.
So for example using your criteria, Pacman beating Thurman wouldent be a factor since Pacman wasent in his prime at the time?
I take all factors into account, but mainly the fighter’s ability.
Manny beating Thurman was a great win, as he was past his prime and old.
IV is always used for rehydration, it is restricted because it is the 'other half' of many diuretics/weight cutters as you can rehydrate very quickly and safely. It isn't a flushing technique. It is also banned because many fighters suffer adverse effects/death due to cutting too much, so banning an effective rehydration technique is meant to control that by making weight cutting harder (go figure).
Aside from looking at a fighters all around ability, you said you look at who they fought in their prime and then you said you look at all factors? Which one is it? For example do you think Hopkins is an ATG?
Probably beats Shane.
Beats Winky from Vargas fight and earlier. Wins by about a point against prime Winky.
Oscar would be about 50-50.
Forrest was never any good at 154 and loses to Canelo and many others there.
Loses to Roy.
Toney would be a classic and could go either way.
Almost kills Benn.
No opinion on Eubank or Ottke.
Loses to Calzaghe.
Loses to Ward.
Beats Kesler and Froch (too easy to hit).
I never said he's an automatic top 50, I said he's worth considering.
And he was just 1 out of more than 50 potential picks.