Whos the greater fighter SRL or FMM

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Joeywill, Jan 5, 2023.

Who's greater

Poll closed Jan 12, 2023.
  1. Ray Leonard

    86.4%
  2. Floyd Mayweather Jr

    13.6%
  1. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    38,030
    7,227
    Mar 7, 2012
    WTF?

    Ha!

    No, he wouldn’t.

    Are you actually serious?

    The mind boggles.

    How on earth could Canelo Alvarez ever rank anywhere in the low 30’s or high 20’s?

    Jesus Christ.

    In the early 90’s, Canelo would just be another very good MW-SMW.

    He’s not another level to the likes of: Roy, Toney, Hopkins, McCallum and Calzaghe etc.

    You are utterly delusional.

    What has he done for this incredibly high placement?

    And don’t give me all the guff about undisputed etc, who did he beat??

    Honestly, you guys are something else.

    A guy who barely beat Trout and Lara in his prime (you think he was prime) being a top 30 ATG fighter??

    The best win of his entire career was against a faded GGG who’d had tough fights with Jacobs and Derev.

    It’s absolutely mind boggling.
     
    Greg Price99 likes this.
  2. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    38,030
    7,227
    Mar 7, 2012
    His chances would be zero to you, because of this warped idea you have that nobody of the past could beat a modern guy, as if modern guys have extra arms or something.

    If you actually read upon Greb, and read the reports of his style and who he beat, and then looked at their footage, he’d have been a stylistic nightmare for someone like Canelo. A guy who struggled with non great fighters and who’s had stamina issues in the past.
     
  3. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Active Member Full Member

    822
    992
    Dec 17, 2018
    Hang on a minute. Hasn't NoNeck changed your perception? If not, I'm somewhat surprised, because he's just posted the following on the Hearns vs Mayweather thread:

    "I'm the guy who has changes (I think he means changed) what the majority think on various issues on this board".

    Ironically, that was immediately after refusing a public poll to determine whether the majority agreed with he or I on whether Pacquiao or Mayweather were further removed from their prime when they fought.
     
    Terror and Loudon like this.
  4. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    38,030
    7,227
    Mar 7, 2012
    GTFO.

    My tone is completely dependent on how and what people post.

    I’m arrogant?

    I think you’ll find that on THREE separate posts, you have ARROGANTLY posted that Ray had NOTHING for Floyd.

    It was ME who told YOU to look at all factors, and not JUST the stats that you have been focusing upon.

    It was ME who was BEING OBJECTIVE.

    So don’t come at me with this BS.

    I was willing to debate you, before your bias kicked in, where you wouldn’t acknowledge my objectivity.


    Running posts by my to see if it qualifies to my standard?

    I asked you THREE very SIMPLE questions, which were in response to your ARROGANT and non objective posts.

    The fact that you haven’t answered them speaks volumes.


    Don’t try and twist this on to me.

    Your comments are here for everyone to see.

    You have been biased, arrogant and ignorant, where you’ve also contradicted yourself.

    So don’t play the victim and imply that I’m an unreasonable poster.

    I’m one of the few guys here who’s advocating a full analysis of all of the factors involved.
     
  5. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    38,030
    7,227
    Mar 7, 2012
    These guys are something else.

    The circus must be in town.

    Being labelled arrogant by a guy who has kept arrogantly claiming that Ray had absolutely nothing at all on Floyd?

    I despair.
     
  6. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

    19,010
    10,428
    Apr 3, 2012
    Go ahead and count out the contenders and champions he beat, and you’ll see that he’s done fine. Nobody cares for your context of convenience and fan based opinions.
     
    White Bomber likes this.
  7. BoB Box

    BoB Box Catch Me on Youtube Full Member

    618
    384
    Jun 13, 2022
     
  8. BoB Box

    BoB Box Catch Me on Youtube Full Member

    618
    384
    Jun 13, 2022
    So whats wrong with using boxrec if my memory or knowledge is lacking? Not everyone knows everything like you.
    I call you out on your arrogance and whatever class you think you have goes right out the window?
     
    Mark Dunham likes this.
  9. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    38,030
    7,227
    Mar 7, 2012
    I don’t give a sh*t about stats.

    You are the stat man.

    You are the famed BoxRec warrior who only looks at the numbers.

    Just tell me who he BEAT to be ranked so high.

    I’ll wait.


    He lost every round to a 36 year old Floyd.

    He barely beat Erislandy Lara.

    He barely beat Austin Trout.

    The biggest wins of his entire career are over a faded Cotto, a faded GGG and a shot Kovalev, who had hardly trained and recovered from his previous fight.


    GGG: Past his best, and had struggled with Derev and Jacobs.

    Canelo got a gift draw before beating an even older version. This was after running from him for as long as possible.


    Cotto:

    Was never a MW in his life, but took an opportunity to beat a faded Martinez with bad knees. A guy who should have lost his title to Martin Murray.

    A shop worn Cotto who’d been bashed up by Margarito and Manny, who’d been in his prime at WW.


    All you’re doing is looking at the stats.

    “Oh, he was the MW champ etc”

    Blinded by numbers, without applying context.


    I’m actually a fan of Canelo’s. I’ve stuck up for him on here when people were bashing him for wanting the Bivol rematch.

    But get some perspective FFS.

    He had great opportunities to beat shopworn fighters, after struggling with B level guys, before cleaning out a weak SMW division.


    Those are NOT the credentials of a top 20-30 fighter.

    Go and educate yourself.


    A top 20 guy of all time, after struggling with Austin Trout, with his best ever win being against an old, faded GGG?

    It’s LAUGHABLE!
     
    Greg Price99 and surfinghb like this.
  10. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    38,030
    7,227
    Mar 7, 2012
    There is nothing wrong with using BoxRec.

    It’s a great source of data.

    I use BoxRec for dates and weights.

    However, statistics don’t allow for circumstances.

    They don’t allow for context.

    Now you arrogantly came on here and said that if you were to compare the numbers, Ray didn’t have anything on Floyd.

    I then replied to you, saying that numbers alone don’t tell the whole story, as statistics alone without applying context, are meaningless.

    Yet you then proceeded to type 2 more posts on the thread, again claiming that Ray had nothing at all on Floyd.

    Go and reread your posts.

    Again, it was me who called for objectivity, and said that this is a good debate and it’s a close call, if you were to take into account all of the factors and not just the statistics.

    So don’t call me out on being arrogant, when you yourself have been arrogant on three continuous posts.


    Now if you want to start over, that’s perfectly fine.

    We can do that.

    I’ll gladly debate you in a respectful manner. And keep using BoxRec as it’s a great use of knowledge. But just try and be objective and look into the circumstances, instead of just taking the stats literally.


    I’ll leave you with this, in a respectful manner:

    Floyd Mayweather was a genius.

    He’s one of the greatest fighters of all time.

    His resume is much deeper than Leonard’s.

    He was more professional than Leonard.

    He was more dedicated.

    He had no defeats and better longevity.

    Ray was also a great fighter.

    Ray fought the better fighters.

    Ray has the better singular wins.

    Ray challenged himself more and took more risks.

    It’s a case of quantity vs quality.

    Floyd has the shiny record and the zero. But Ray fought dangerous guys, who were they type of guys who Floyd wouldn’t have fought in the second half of his career as ‘Money’

    Ray came back from a 3 lay off to fight Marvin Hagler.

    Floyd came off of an 18 month lay off to fight Márquez, before deliberately cheating him on the scales.

    Ray went to war in a shootout against an undefeated Hearns, whereas Floyd wouldn’t fight a prime Manny.

    Floyd claims he’s TBE yet never fought or beat a prime ATG fighter.

    Ray gets mocked for his end of career losses, whereas Floyd ended his career with safe fights against Andre Berto and an MMA fighter.


    All of the above makes for a great debate.
     
    Greg Price99 likes this.
  11. Mark Dunham

    Mark Dunham Active Member Full Member

    1,426
    721
    Mar 19, 2021
    why didnt Ray fight Marv during his prime?

    Ray always seems to get everyone's leftovers
     
    surfinghb likes this.
  12. surfinghb

    surfinghb Boxing Addict Full Member

    6,983
    9,847
    Aug 26, 2017
    Because he cherry picked the fight waiting for Marv to get as shopworn as possible ,, same as he did with the Hearns 2 fight
    You are preaching to the choir here ,, lol
     
  13. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

    19,010
    10,428
    Apr 3, 2012
    @surfinghb
    Oscar came in at a full 154 to Mayweather’s 150 for that fight. He came in under 147–I think it was 145–for Pacquiao, which is a big reason why he was terrible on that night.
     
    surfinghb likes this.
  14. surfinghb

    surfinghb Boxing Addict Full Member

    6,983
    9,847
    Aug 26, 2017
    ok thanks for that
     
  15. BoB Box

    BoB Box Catch Me on Youtube Full Member

    618
    384
    Jun 13, 2022
    If you want to have a respectful debate and start over then why didn't you start with that instead of taking one last shot at me saying I'm arrogant for stating factual numbers which are hugely lopsided in FMM favor. That's not arrogance that's facts regardless of context or not and that was my point. I wanted to clarify that.
    I have no hard feelings...
    For The sake of the conversation ill try to leave out the numbers which actually will work in your favor but that's fine.

    SRL had a controversial win against Hagler and never gave Hagler a rematch.
    FMM had a controversial win over Castillo and granted Castillo a rematch and beat him again.

    your opinion of an ATG may differ from mine but I consider these fighters to at least make it into the conversation..

    Corrales @22 yrs old - In Prime
    Cotto @31 yrs old - In Prime
    Maidana 2 @ 30 yrs old - in Prime
    Hatton @ 28yrs old -In Prime
    Judah @28 yrs old - In prime
    ODLH @33 yrs old - Maybe past prime but still looked good

    From my understanding and according to FMM camp at the time, The Pacman FMM fight didn't take place during their prime because Pacman refused to be drug tested.

    FMM was more reserved but PBF took many chances a risks during his fights willing to shoot it out that's why most of his 27 knockouts came in his younger years.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2023
    Loudon and NoNeck like this.