The point is, they’re not only used just for rehydration. They’re also used as masking agents, which is why they’re banned by WADA. There’s no way that Floyd was severely dehydrated after the weigh-in. When was he ever severely dehydrated? If he’d have genuinely been dehydrated, he’d have taken on oral fluids first. He also purposely didn’t report it, and he didn’t have it administered in a medical facility. So we don’t need to hire Columbo to work out what happened.
I said that I look at all factors, but focus primarily on their ability. Miguel Cotto was a fine fighter. But I personally wouldn’t class him as a true ATG, with guys like Floyd and the Fab Four etc. Yes, I consider Hopkins to be an ATG. I think he’s more deserving than Cotto.
We can go around and around. Floyd laps Ray when it comes to longevity and being undefeated. Ray laps Floyd with signature wins over Benitez, Hearns, Duran, and Hagler. And no, Hagler wasn't washed when Ray whupped him. He was faded a bit for sure though.
Thank you for giving your honest opinions. From your predictions, do you honestly see him as a top 30 fighter of all time? How impressive is it that he’s undisputed at SMW, when the fighters he beat weren’t great, and you would have had him losing to Roy, Ward, Calzaghe and possibly Toney? That’s just saying that he can rule a weak division, but not a strong one against other great fighters. Like I said, in the 90’s and 00’s, as well as in a stronger era, he wouldn’t have these accomplishments. He’s a great fighter, but he’s fighting in a weak era. He hasn’t got the credentials to rate as highly as what you and Bomber believe. He might not even have made the P4P list in the late 90’s. He’d have been highly respected, but he’d never have held his current reputation. When you’re talking top 30, you’re talking about very special fighters.
He isn’t worth considering. He was never a truly great fighter, and he never beat any great fighters. There’s been many fighters throughout history who’s had Carl’s level of ability. When you’re talking about the top 50 fighters, across all weight classes, all throughout history, you’re talking about a small select group of really special fighters.
I mean, don't ask for the correct answer then give the wrong answer again. I don't know if I've heard of this occurring, if you're taking a masking agent, you're not doing it during a monitored rehydration. IV rehydration helps all people no matter the cut severity, it makes them all easier. That's why people use IV rehydration for hangovers. I'm not saying it's inconceivable that Floyd was on PEDs, it isn't inconceivable, but I don't think this is the best place to look. p.s. Even if completely juiced, his competition was as well, and he beat them all. SRL was banging rails and whatever else in the 80s so who knows what he was doing, either. Floyd prob beats Pac in 2013, too. I think the best shot for a Pacquiao win re: this rehash Pacweathering that's hijacked this thread is 2010ish.
I’m just stating the facts. Some fighters use IV’s to flush out PEDS. They are used by some guys as masking agents. WADA and VADA ban the use of IV’s because of this. For one to be officially administered, it has to be done following a certain procedure. Fighters who are just dehydrated don’t have IVs. They are only for extreme cases. Floyd has never in his career been severely dehydrated, and he was only around 3 pounds out at the 30 day weight check. So his reasoning wasn’t logical, and the fact that he did it secretly in his own home, without reporting it to the commission, speaks volumes. It’s patently obvious that it wasn’t legitimate.
I see your point but like I said before I think its two different conversations...Do they make it onto the ATG list and then where do they rank on the ATG list ...and to add how long is the ATG list
You’re using a bunch of back bending logic. He cleaned up 154 (minus Floyd), 160, and 168( still needs Benavidez). All divisions were strong, especially 160. And he took a 175 title against a solid champ (not a 168 pound Lalonde). It is what it is. I said top 40 btw. He probably deserves top 30 if he beats Benavidez (assuming he beats Plant) and Andrade. James Toney and Nunn had lots of h2h potential and didn’t really fulfill their potential in contrast.
If the PED isn't out of your system, an IV hydration won't accelerate the process tremendously past the point of simple hydration, I know the idea of "adding something directly to your blood" sounds exotic and interesting, but it's just water. You can drink it and achieve the same effect, just over several hours more time. Regarding getting a personal IV done, it's a pretty common thing and there's even hangover buses that provide the service. It is a normal procedure and I doubt Floyd Money Mayweather is rolling up on a Quest Diagnostics demanding an IV. Floyd could have hit the champagne too hard the night before and just wanted to get some more water in his system fast. Floyd probably did it just because he wanted to and they said he couldn't. Floyd could have ingested a masking agent via injection any time before or after the IV, so really it is irrelevant.
It’s certainly subjective. Nobody will ever universally agree who the GOAT is. However, most people can recognise a certain level of ability. For example, not many people would rank Ricky Hatton as an ATG.
Agree its subjective. There or thereabouts top 100 p4p all time is the rough guide as to what I consider an ATG. Using that criteria I consider it likely SLR has Duran, Hagler, Hearns and Benetiz. Mayweather has Pacquiao, ODLH and Marquez. Canelo may be evaluated there at the end of his career, too. Ignoring smaller and/or age plus 35, SRL has 3 wins over ATGs and Mayweather 1, may become/arguably 2 with Canelo. Excluding smaller and 35+, wins over top 50 ATGs goes 2 to 0 for SRL. As has been said multiple times in this thread, SRL's advantages here are offset, to one degree or another, by Mayweather's deeper wins over world rated fighters and greater longevity.
I’m not bending anything. You rate him very highly due to his accomplishments which look great on paper. But when you put them under the microscope and apply context, they’re not that great. He obtained most of those accomplishments by beating non great fighters. You have just said yourself that you don’t think he’d have beaten guys like Roy, Ward, Calzaghe and possibly Toney. So he’s beaten lots of decent fighters, but in a stronger era, he’d have struggled and achieved less. He cleaned up 154? He won a vacant belt from a Euro level fighter. He then barely beat a B level Austin Trout. He then lost almost every round to Floyd, before barely beating Erislandy Lara. There’s nothing great there. He then beat a faded Cotto at a catch-weigh for the lineal MW title, before getting a gift against an aged GGG. He then moved up and cleared out the SMW division, which was impressive. However it wasn’t great, as he didn’t beat any great fighters there.
