In 3 posts since being asked, you still havent been able to reference one thing in my post that was nonsense. I rank SRL #17 all time p4p, Mayweather #19. At the time of posting, this poll favours SRL 28 to 6. Therefore, I think it's reasonable to postulate that I rate Mayweather favourably relative to SRL compared to the average classic forum poster. The post you quoted was balanced, with pros and cons of both Mayweather and SRL. Yours have solely been from a pro-FM, anti-SRL, viewpoint, which is seemingly considerably further away from the median view on this forum, than my own.
I referenced an entire paragraph that I disagreed with and explained why. You haven’t disputed anything I said about Mayweather and Leonard because it’s all accurate, however upsetting it may be to you. Continue as you were, valuing the median viewpoint of Boxing24 Classic posters above all else.
Not a fan of either boxer. I can see both sides arguments have merit. We're talking about who was greater? It's Mayweather IMO. Ray beat greater fighters by a good margin but he didn't sustain a title reign all that long. He retired in 1982 certainly one of the great Welters but those 5 years we got nothing. When he cameback he wasn't the same fighter he had been but he was also on the senior circuit as well. He was fighting older guys like himself. With Floyd he was totally dominant and consistent. He had maybe two fights that were close. Remember Mayweather started at 130lbs. He was a Supreme boxer at that weight class. I can't imagine anyone being better than he was in that division. Some maybe as good. Often Leonard and $ are matched and compared as 147lbers and there Leonard is superior by a solid margin. That doesn't necessarily mean he beats him P4P though. Floyd maintained greatness over a period of years and that's hard to do. I guess its depends on your criteria what you put more stock in.
That’s true, but Ray also had a size advantage. He won his first title at 147. Floyd at 130. Pretty much this. Leonard from 79-82 was absolutely amazing, and I think better than peak Floyd. His best opponents (Benitez, Duran, Hearns) were easily on a higher level than Floyd’s best wins. Floyd, however, has the longevity edge, and beat a whole long list of contenders/titlists. Leonard was very inactive after 82’, and he was very selective with his competition. He was clearly not the same anymore. But a decade and a half into his pro career, Floyd was still the best p4p boxer in the world.
Hearns knocks out every opponent Mayweather fought at welterweight. Benitez beats 90% of the fighters Mayweather beat. And Leonard beat both of those fighters even put the first loss on both of their records.
No, you havent. You said Mayweather started at 130lbs. Nowhere in that paragraph did I suggest otherwise. You said SRL leveraged his higher profile when negotiating fights. Nowhere in that paragraph did I suggest otherwise. 4 posts now, and 4 failures to explain what specific point I made that you deem to be nonsense. Think about what you are posting. If I valued the median view on here above all else, my own view would be aligned to it, wouldnt it? And yet it clearly isnt. I certainly value the combined view of 32 (28 + 6 = 34, minus you and I, assuming you voted on this thread) posters over yours, I'll concede that.
In fact, to make this debate a bit more competitive, I'll do two things to help you - 1) I'll list all the points i made in my 4th paragraph, below; and 2) To allow you a dignified retreat, just advise which one(s) you disagree with, you don't need to go as far as saying which are nonsense: 1) Mayweather selected opponents he knew he'd beat 2) Mayweather beat some excellent, world class fighters 3) Mayweather didn't beat a WW as good as Hearns 4) SRL's win over Hagler enhanced his greatness 5) Mayweather didn't have a win as great as SRL's over Hagler. To have one, he'd have need to have beaten Martinez or GGG at 154-160lbs (before someone on the opposite end of this particular spectrum to NoNeck informs me Hagler was far greater than Martinez or GGG, I know he was. Mayweather was smaller than SRL. A Mayweather win over Martinez and GGG at the right point, would have been roughly as great as SRL's over Hagler, imo) 6) Mayweather was under no obligation to fight someone with a size advantage as great as Martinez or GGG 7) It would have taken a win over Martinez or GGG for me to consider Mayweather a contender for a top 10 p4p all time fighter, rather than the top 20 I actually rank him at
It is a case of quality over quantity, for me. And, in terms of quality, Leonard's ceiling is so far out of sight, compared with Mayweather's, that the answer to the question is a no-brainer... ...Sugar Ray Leonard is the greater fighter.
I think there are two types of ATG. The first is technically brilliant and totally dominates his opponents. This makes it easy to underrate his opposition, they make it seem easy. The other comes up the hard way and is involved in fights everyone will remember and rewatch forever, their mettle is tested and this marks their greatness. Often it is just about the luck of having superior contemporaries, luck with matchmaking and a willingness to chase greatness. I feel both Mayweather and Leonard fall into the first category but only Leonard moved into the second IMO. There is no doubt Mayweather is an incredible technician but while he made victories over several excellent world class fighters seem easy I am not convinced his best opponents they were at their peak. People accused Leonard of being calculated but I feel Mayweather takes this to a whole other level. I see him as a business man more than anything, and his genius has been to create an audience for a personal fighting style that generally does not win a mass audience. Leonard beat two ATGs, Hearns and Duran, who were at their peak and despite Hagler being on the slide he was still a fearsome champ and Leonard had been out of the ring for 3 years or so. I would also add the Benitez victory as a win over an almost peak almost ATG. Hand on heart I don't see three wins of this level against peak ATGs on Mayweather's record. I see the wins over Mosley, De La Hoya and Manny Pacquiao as similar to Leonard's Hagler win, a great win over a fighter who was ready for the taking. Remember De La Hoya and Pacquiao had come from recent brutal KO losses in big fights (as had Cotto another good win) before facing Mayweather. His win over Hatton was brilliant but I would be pushed to say Hatton was a great, although very very good. Canelo Álvarez win is the nearest to a win over a peak ATG, depending if you rate Canelo as such yet. Hearns was unbeaten while Hagler and Duran were on long winning streaks and seen as maybe the best ever at their weight classes. Also the fact that Hearns and Duran (and Benitez) all went on to win further titles and add to their legacy shows they were not spent fighters when Leonard faced them. When I weigh up two fighters P4P I try and look not just at the record but also the times the fighters were tested and showed a champions heart. I feel out of the two Leonard is the only one to really have been forced deep down to prove himself. It may well be that Mayweather is simply so good that he would make any opponent, even prime Duran and Hearns look like easy wins. I respect those that feel that way. But for whatever reasons I feel he lacks great fights, definitive statements and moments you want to rewatch on his record. Other than as exercises in beautiful technique (which is of course not necessarily a bad reason to watch a fighter!). For the record I would also put, for example, Joe Calzaghe in this category, I have no beef with Mayweather, in fact I am a fan. I am more than happy if you think my reasoning is flawed and happy to learn from other posters. I should also say I am swayed by the fact I grew up watching SSR so I am sure that gives me a bias!
One other point, I think SSL is a really underrated puncher and this is a final reason I have him a notch above Mayweather. His first destruction of Hearns is an awesome demonstrations of vicious punching. Also let us not forget that he prevented Hagler completely swarming over him not just through moving but because his punches hurt!
Excellent post. I see it pretty much the same as you. Mayweather dominating multiple world class fighters 17lbs above where he 1st won a world title, allied with tremendous longevity, means I rank him closer to SRL than most. But, imo, those factors are just ever so slightly more than offset by the excellent points you raise.
