Who's Your #3 Heavyweight?

For me it's not a given that Ali and Louis are 1 & 2. I feel that this is a situation where this has been repeated so many times that it has become "official" and how dare anybody disagree, without fear of ridicule!

Personally I have Louis as the greatest ever overall, for a number of reasons, his domination for such a long time and also because I find him so aesthetically pleasing, from the point of view of his understated & underrated economy of movement, power, combination punching, ruthlessness when a victim was hurt etc. Watching Luois at his best is for me a thing of beauty, and overall I think he would, more often than not, beat ANYBODY. Schmeling 2 is for me absolute perfection. Having said that, I feel for example that a Marciano at the top of his game, over 15 rounds, may make all that redundant and beat him in his virtually unstoppable way.

I would probably have Ali at 3, although I believe Holmes at his best gives him fits all day long and twice on Sundays. Holmes, with his attributes could very well go 50/50 with Ali IMO.

For me, it's:

Louis (just)
Marciano
Ali

Then, in terms of greatness, perm any from Johnson, Dempsey, Frazier, Foreman (mainly for January 22nd 1973 but also because of being the oldest champion), Holmes, Holyfield & Lewis.

I have excluded Liston and Tyson from the above list principally because, IMO, they did not overcome adversity in major fights, one of the major factors of greatness in a champion IMO. I am aware that there is an argument that Lewis did not do this, but I like the way that he was able to come back and convincingly defeat men that had stopped him.

 

H2H?

The same...

Louis, Ali, and Maricnao. I mean they wouldn't have beat the fighters they did to carve those legacies if they weren't ****ing good H2H. H2H is **** anyway, judging a legacy by percieved fantasy ability. Cuz we all so good at picking fights apparently.

 

I have Johnson as my #3, and it is good to see that a few people agree with me.

Marciano would also make a strong pick as would Jeffries.

I get the idea that the consensus on this board is moving towards either Holmes or Lewis as the #3 guy, which is in itself not a bad thing.

 

It is a strange contradiction, and hard to decide how this affects Johnson's legacy.

On the one hand, johnson probably never did face one of the 3 best fighters in the world (as opposed to highest ranked). On the other hand, at one or even most stages of his career he had already defeated and usually totally dominated in more than one bout often when in poor condition, about 9 of the 10 best fighters in the world! a domination that only Ali and Louis can compare to and to be honest, neithercould really beat (by much anyway). Not only was there pretty much no one he hadnt beaten with a chance to seriously challenge him for a huge period of time, when he was beaten by the young lion it took tremendous heat and a huge number of rounds to do it. And Johnson followed this with another 10 year undefeated streak against some opposition that was in reality a hell of a lot better than people give credit to him. In reality, if alphabet titles were in existence back then, he would have almost certainly reigned for about 20 or 25 years in total. If longevity counts, Johnson is a clear top 3 and possibly higher.


Yet the points remain about avoiding Langford and Co, although it must be remembered that this avoiding only happened in later years when in all reality, he was far past prime. To put it into perspective (relative to his prime) he was probably closer to the Tyson that faced Lewis or maybe even Williams or McBride than the Tyson that faced Douglas or Holyfield. Yet he was so good, that other than willard, it still took 15 years before they could beat him.

I think Johnson is a very good choice for no 3.

Others like Marciano, Jeffries, Sullivan, Dempsey, possibly even Tyson, or liston are chances as well, but you really need to value a short but dominant career, in which case, they (or at least some) probably would leap frog Ali in your lists.

Foreman is another one, who is interesting and could be worth a shout. He has the longevity as well the dominance. I think that he could easily be placed at no 3.

 

Prime Foreman is a H2H nightmare for everyone not named Ali (and Liston IMO)

 

I think all top ten fighters are a nightmare for any champion - including against each other.

Night for night there are some super fighters. H2h is like night for night and under night for night buster douglas could be a GOAT H2H so its not how we should ever rate champions.

However the fighters who showed dominating form at an elite level against the best availible opponents deserve to be highest. The three I would put in the top are Louis, Ali and marciano. IMO Those three delivered in key fights better than all others.

 

Thats true, anyone could beat anyone on their best night.

But Prime Foreman Knocks them all out more often than not IMO

 

I'm.actually.pretty.surprised-pleasantly.surprised.to.see.that.the.guy.I.thought.I.was.picking.
as.a.minority.shout.is.actually.being.picked.by.many.
Holmes.
Dominance-I.don't.believe.anyone.really.was.an.outstanding.enough..#1.challenger.for.any.length.of.time.that.I'd.call.Larry.on.any.
detracting.level.of.ducking.while.champ,.even.though.later.on.he.was.admittedly.pretty.conveniently.selective
and.H2H,yes,I.consider.him.to.be.H2H.on.the.same.tier.as.my.number.2.heavy-Louis.

This.man,imo,is.H2H.at.his.own.weight.class,.one.of.the.best.of.any.weight.class.
There.were.no.holes.in.the.major.categories.
He.was.excellent.on.Defense
Moved.and.picked.off.shots.terrifically.
Excellent.and.varied.on.offense.
Respectable,power,awesome.right.uppercut,.as.good.a.jab.or.better.than.any.HW.in.history.
Straight.right.and.right.cross,excellent.Sharp,fast,accurate.
Excellent.chin.complimented.by.the.best.of.powers.of.recovery.
Plenty.of.flat.out.grit.
You.want.a.dirty.fight.he.can.get.down.in.the.gutter.with.the.best.of.them.

He.didn't.have.prime.super-star.ATG.heavies.to.fight,in.his.own.prime.
But.if.you.want.to.see.him.in.a.great.competitive.fight.with.an.excellent.fighter.with.some.adversity,like.we.like.to.see-we.have.Norton.
You.want.to.see.him.put.on.an.absolute.shutout.clinic.against.someone.whose.good.but.overmatched,another.kind.of.evidence-take.your.pick-Ocasio,Cobb,and.all.the.Euro.champs.of.yore.
You.want.to.see.a.way.past.prime.losing.performance.that's.gotta.make.you.wonder?
Holyfield.
A.way.past.prime.winning.performance.that's.gotta.make.you.wonder?Mercer

No,.no.wins.over.prime.ATG.heavies-the.ultimate.best.indicator,by.itself,.on.its.own.
But.he's.got.every.other.damn.thing.you.can.look.at.

...I.apologize.all.that.had.no.spaces.but.I've.been.handicapped,mate.

 

??????????

 

Or Young perhaps.

I somtimes think that Foreman rates higher in terms of legacy than head to head.

Yes he was dynamite, but he was much better against some styles than others.

 

If Foreman had fought Holmes and Tyson in the 90s, his resume would have been immense!

 

Lets not prejudge the outcomes here.

 

I.think.he'd.lose.to.both.of.them.

It.would.seem.he.thought.he'd.lose.to.Holmes.too...

 

Im not saying hed beat them

but his resume would consist
of Ali
Frazier
Norton
Tyson
Holmes
Holyfield
And others

Now that is some resume.