Who's your GOAT?

I'm fine with the term itself but hate that it's getting used so incorrectly lately. Like "literally".

 

Young Cassuis Clay / Older Muhammad Ali
Hands Down

 

This is an outstanding post.

I couldn't have worded it any better.

Floyd's one of the greatest fighters of all time.

Price is a euro level HW.

Despite not being able to win a H2H match up, Floyd is obviously the better fighter.

 

I respect your opinion, but to me it's just common sense to rate everybody on a P4P basis.

My criteria is to analyse the following:

A fighters complete skill set (balance, timing, shot variation etc)
Who they fought and at what point in time
The manner of their victories
Their dominance
Their accomplishments
Their longevity

Kirk's post was brilliant.

Floyd vs Price was a great analogy.

In my opinion, it would be utterly ridiculous to rate a euro level HW over one of the greatest fighters of all time.

Price would only win due to his huge advantages in size and power, and the fact that Floyd wouldn't engage him.

That wouldn't mean that he was a better fighter. It would just mean that he was bigger and more powerful. He wouldn't win the fight on ability, only on sheer size.

Are you going to say that Charles Martin's a better fighter than Loma?

It's madness.

You don't rate price by envisaging him fighting WW's.

You rate him by using objective criteria against his fellow HW's.

 

Well it depends if you are rating from a strictly p4p perspective or from a H2H perspective.

I mean Floyd is a better fighter than Pac. Flat out better fighter H2H.

Pacquiao is better p4p.

Theres two different discussions here.

 

Because he fought 3 of the greatest featherweights in history and rose from 112 to dominate a strong and prime WW champion.

Could Floyd dominate Carl Froch?

 

You cant compare Pacquiao to Mayweathers opponents like a Canelo. Pacquiao is too small for Canelo.

The fact that Pacquiao could even be competitive at WW let alone dominate an elite WW is one of the top 3 most impressive feats in boxing history.

See, some people like to use H2H and p4p interchangeably. They are totally different things.

Like getting back to my point. Gassiev is better H2H than Loma. But Loma is better p4p. Floyd is better than Manny H2H. But Manny is better p4p.

Which brings me back to the point of the thread taking these things into account. A HW must be considered the greatest ever when talking about who is the best fighter H2H. But when talking about p4p you can argue the case of a lighter fighter.

 

When I rank fighters, I rate on a P4P basis using the criteria from my previous post.

I also rate fighters on a H2H basis, but not against fighters from different weights in the way that you do.

As you know, I'm a huge fan of Roy Jones.

Under traditional criteria, you can't really rate Roy in the top 20, due to his resume. But based on his talent, I'd rate him that highly on a H2H basis. I also rate him very highly at MW on a H2H basis.

One of my other favourite fighters of all time is Ray Leonard.

I rate Ray higher than Roy in the all time rankings, despite believing that Roy would have beaten him in an actual fight.

So where we differ, is:

To me: H2H = overall ability

To you: H2H = an actual fight

 

Yes I think RJJ beats him in a fight too. And think that RJJ is better H2H. But since Ray is naturally smaller and a natural WW he should be expected to lose. So there is a good argument to be made that Ray is better p4p.

But H2H I'm going with Jones clearly. I dont think Ray could beat John Ruiz.

 

I've just edited my post.

I don't think you caught the last part.

Where it gets a little confusing, is that:

To me: H2H = overall ability

To you: H2H = an actual fight

Roy Jones only had 7 fights at SMW. But on a H2H basis, (in terms of ability) he's the greatest SMW of all time.

I don't care that Ward, Calzaghe and Ottke achieved more.

I don't care that Calzaghe beat Roy in 2008.

In my honest opinion, Roy was the greatest SMW of all time.

 

I agree with how we view what the term H2H means.

 

Pacquiao won a 112 pound title and dominated a Welterweight elite. That's never been done before.

He also moved up to 126 and stopped an A+ level fighter. That's never been done before.