Whose career is ranked higher: Ali pre-1967 or Ali Post 1970?

He looked pretty sharp v Frazier in their rematch but pretty bad in the FOTC he looked quite good v Foreman, but all his other fights that decade were pretty subpar compared to his prime, he looked better v Liston, but I feel Frazier was his best opponent, Foreman was poor v Ali, one thing he showed in the 70`s was a great chin that he didn`t really show in the 60`s, the hook Cooper dropped Ali with hurts his 60`s legacy, even though he went on to take a harder hook from Liston, I`d say 50/50.

 

Many will disagree with me, but Muhammad Ali of pre exile 1967 was far better. Maybe he did not fight a Ken Norton or a peak Joe Frazier, and a peak George Foreman, but he had all of his physical gifts. Ali had the stamina (No Rope A Dope), footwork, reflexes, speed, and timing. But he did fight Sonny Liston (twice) Floyd Patterson, George Chuvalo, Karl Mildenberger, Ernie Terrell, who was WBA champion, and gave a rematch to the fighter who floored him in 1963, Henry Cooper. I saw both versions, but the 1970's edition was fast but not as fast as the 1960;s version, he lacked stamina, footwork, timing, his reflexes wore slower, he put on too much weight, he looked pudgy and he was very vulnerable unlike his first title reign (1964-1967). Ali also could live in an opponents head during his first title reign. A fighter cannot be faulted for facing what is available in his own era. As for his vulnerability, we saw the deterioration of a great fighter. He never lost his title in the ring in his first title reign, it was taken from him in 1967, as he rejected military induction into the Armed Forces during the Vietnam War. Like him or hate him for whatever reason, he was great.

 

But he tore up Henry Cooper in his only title shot on May 21 1966, TKO 6. I believe 14 stitches, one of the bloodiest beating I have ever seen on a fighter live on ABC's Wide World Of Sports. Ali had only two fights in 43 months when he went up to challenge champion Joe Frazier on March 8 1971, and sparring is not like an actual ring combat, Ali was rusty.

 

No, 60s Ali will not be ranked higher cause he faced weak opposition for the most part. Liston and Patterson are the only 2 good men he faced, but neither was at his best.
First of all, Liston was older than stated. Second of all, going into the first fight, he was not properly prepared for the first fight, having underestimated Ali. We all saw the dive in their second encounter.
And Patterson had back problems. Ali probably would have won regardless, but Patterson would have put up a much better fight.

70s Ali faced way better opposition, and he beat most of them, even though some of his wins have an asterix mark around them.
Frazier's eye vision was getting worse in the second fight and he was almost blind by their 3rd. Ali should have been penalized by the ref for excessive holding and pushing down on Frazier's head.
Foreman was a good win, but Ali tricked him and the heat also did a lot of damage to Foreman.

To conclude, a career filled with wins over bums and 2 good boxers (neither of which were at their best) is not better than a career filled with wins over 4 or 5 good boxers and a few losses.

 

Honestly, what an incredible boxer and fighter. There is another thread "Why is Holyfield considered a top 5 HW?". Ali had two separate careers (pre 1967 and post 1970). Even with one career alone, he would easily be a top 5 HW or better. In addition, he arguably lost his best 3.5 years due to a ban. Afterwards he was another kind of fighter. He had to reinvent himself, due to lack of footwork, speed and reflexes. And he did it. Nobody fought and defeated as many top heavyweight boxers as Ali. When asked about the greatest boxer of all time, boxers like SRR, Harry Greb, Sam Langford or Henry Armstrong are often mentioned. But for me, Ali is up there.
Okay but back to the topic. I think the 60s Ali was better. When it comes to the strength of his careers though, it's 50/50 for me too.

 

Pre exile Ali was unbeatable but his post exile resume is better

 

Don't think I've thought about it like that before, but it's crazy to think that he actually had two top 5 careers.

 

I completely agree. As unbeatable as a heavyweight could get. Louis, Holmes, Holy, Foreman, Tyson, Wlad, Fury...all would have gone home losers.

Yeah, Cleveland Williams was past it. But just watch how Ali moves, his early maturity and poise. He could have had the primes of each man listed above before him and consummately beaten them. He was just sensational.

The Williams fight alone illustrates how unbelievably well he boxed, and in itself ranks up there with Duran-Leonard I, Holmes-Shavers I, and FOTC Frazier as one of the greatest boxing performances in history. And that's just one example from 60s Ali.

 

Pre prison Ali is better than post prison Ali but post prison Ali has a better resume, so post prison Ali ranks higher. It's about as simple as that.

 

Brilliant post,love it

 

The first career, imo. He was unbeaten with wins over Liston, Floyd, Terrell and a good few other contenders. He outclassed his best contenders and looked fantastic when he took the title from Liston. Not much more you can ask.

Some would holler about Jones and Cooper and that Liston really was 65 and drunk in the ring and also took two dives, but for unbiased eyes you'd look at a truly sensational career that was cut too short. The second one also had some great wins but also losses and fights that could have gone the other way.

 

I would say overall quality of wins is greater post 1970 comeback but that pre 1967 ban Ali was better overall as a fighter

 

Muhammad Ali never went to prison for Draft Evasion, he was out on bail as he pleaded his case through the various courts from 1967-1971. On June 28 1971 the U.S. Supreme Court reversed his 1967 Draft Evasion conviction by 8-0, Justice Thurgood Marshall recused himself, the high court cited that the draft board was wrong with not recognizing Ali's claim of being a Muslim Minister, violation of Ali's 3 rd, and 14th amendment rights. But Ali did not spend a single night in Prison, instead he lectured around various colleges while fighting his case. His title was stripped , his license revoked during his banishment from boxing, 1967-1970. When Ali fought champion Joe Frazier in The Fight Of The Century on March 8 1971, he entered as a challenger.