Whose career is ranked higher: Ali pre-1967 or Ali Post 1970?

I think he's referring to peers by age group, not by rankings at the time. Again, it's kind of a parallel argument that you could make against Marciano or (to some extent) Tyson, who also happened to be facing older foes when they came up.

 

Ali also worked as Ellis' sparring partner when Ellis was training to defend his WBA belt against Cooper when Ali had no license.

You are looking at this with 70s glasses on.

By peers, I mean Ali was 22 when he defeated Liston. Ali didn't fight a lot of guys in their early 20s in title defenses. Liston, Patterson, Folley, London, Williams, Cooper were all from another era.

Frazier, Bonavena, Quarry, Ellis, Shavers, Lyle, etc. were all more Ali's age. If he never fought in the 70s, he never would've faced them.

 

My point is that I think it carries negligible weight compared to what happens in the ring. That Ellis beat multiple top contenders for his WBA throne, and then defended it successfully. He was very clearly one of the two or three best fighters in the world at the time, in an unusually young, hungry heavyweight division.

It might be helpful to consider who was whose sparring partner *before* a fight when you're trying to guess the winner. But it seems strange to look at sparring partner status when you have the actual, complete professional fight records of that era available.

 

At least two of them were good enough to trouble Quarry several years later.

 

True.

 

Ali had been out of the ring two and a half years and very rusty by his own account when he worked as Ellis's sparring partner for a little while. Ellis was an active pro in his prime years when he worked as Ali's.

 

You maybe right, but that (logically) mean Rocky fought the #2 contender, Don gockell, because the #1 contender certainely had already agreed to another fight, and it was against Moore.
Unless if the Don-Marciano fight has been signed for months (truly unlikely IMO) and it was postponed for whatever reason.
Which fight was signed first? I don't have a real answer to that. But all i know is that Rocky fought don because Valdes lost his opportunity and his 1# spot in the rankings thanks to moore.

 

Yes, Valdes could have signed with Moore when Rocky signed with Cockell.

 

Ellis was Ali's chief sparring partner IN THE 1970s. That was basically his job thru most of the decade.

In the 1960s, he was NOT. Ellis wasn't even a heavyweight during most of Ali's 60s run. They were stablemates.

Once Ellis won the WBA heavyweight title in the late 1960s, Ali worked as Ellis' sparring partner. If Ali never came back, Jimmy Ellis WOULD NOT be seen as Ali's sparring partner.

You'd have two guys who split their amateur fights. Two guys who never fought as pros. And two guys who helped each other to prepare while each was preparing to defend their own heavyweight belts.

We all know Ali was better than them NOW because he beat them in the 1970s. If he never fought them in the 70s, and we had to figure out if the guy who got flattened by Henry Cooper and Sonny Banks could take the hooks from Quarry and Frazier and Foreman, I doubt people would've given Ali the benefit of the doubt. Because he hadn't proved it yet. He didn't until the 70s.

 

I think that's kind of his point when he mentioned viewing this scenario through 70s goggles. Ali never comes back in this scenario. He's gone by the later 60s as an active competitor. Most of the time Ellis worked for Ali came in the 70s.

In a timeline where Ali retires, they're almost like ships passing in the night. Ellis worked as Ali's sparring partner earlier, and Ali worked as Ellis's sparring partner later, when he was rusty and needed the money. You can't really get much from that. It's more enlightening to see who else Ellis beat around the time when he defeated Quarry (or whomever.)

 

In fact, one gets the impression that the boxing commentariat of the time (from whom most boxing fans get their views) perceived Ali as a little fragile -- that Frazier or Foreman would knock him out if he'd lost his superhuman reflexes.

 

Exactly.

He had already beaten Quarry twice, Frazier, Bonavena, Ellis, etc., when he signed to fight Foreman, and they still didn't think he could take Foreman's shot. Ali was an 8-1 underdog.

Ali's chin was a question mark throughout the 60s. If he'd never fought in the 70s, we never would've gotten a definite answer.

 

He was Ali sparing partner during the 60's and a HW from '66. There is footage them sparring ahead of Folley in 1967, so he stayed as Ali's sparring partnet until he was exiled.

From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Ellis_(boxer)#Professional_career

"At the end of 1964, after losing three out of four fights, Ellis decided to leave Bruner. He later recalled Bruner fondly. "I liked him, and I fought a lot of top-rated fighters when I was with him, but eventually I had to move on," Ellis said. "He did me justice, and we always remained friends."[5]

Ellis wrote a letter to an at first skeptical[6] Angelo Dundee, the trainer of Ali, and asked him to handle his career. Dundee agreed to be both manager and trainer. Ellis became a sparring partner for Ali and fought on several of Ali's early pre-world championship undercards. "

 

No he started as his sparring partner in the 60's. Look at my answer above.

 

Before their fight @Dubblechin @cross_trainer:

"To the 29‐year‐old Ali, vindication is possible only in a rematch with Frazier, probably early next year. Meanwhile he can't seem to take Ellis seriously, perhaps because of the memory of how easily he handled him as a sparring partner prior to his 3½‐year exile. And he has rationalized his refusal to make his usual boastful prediction."

https://www.nytimes.com/1971/07/26/archives/ali-and-ellis-to-spar-for-keeps-tonight.html