Whose career is ranked higher: Ali pre-1967 or Ali Post 1970?

No I can't see why there would be broader opinion that Ali would have picked up losses against guys that struggled with older version of fighter thats were well beaten by Ali.

There would certainly be some claims, since claims are made about all matter of things whether there's good reason or not, but I can't see that they would gain much traction.

 

But you agree with Dubblechin that he was one of Ali's sparring partners in the 70's, 'cause I've never heard that before? On the other hand, I can't say I have much knowledge about his sparring partners after he won the crown back.

 

Chuvalo was viewed as having given a good account of himself against Ali, but he remained a gatekeeper/fringe contender in the 70s. Patterson indisputably had a back problem against Ali, so like is not being compared with like there. Terrell we never got to see against the 70s guys.

 

I think it's making much too big an issue of injury problems, which are common in fights, to say that Ali didn't do better against a younger version of Floyd. Same if you compare how Ali did against Floyd with how Bonavena did.

Ali won a wide decision over Chuvalo and Quarry lost to an older version. So I see no real basis for the upcoming generation being any better and being a threat to Ali. Apart from Frazier.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/1975/06/10/archives/bugner-not-ali-makes-prediction.html

https://www.nytimes.com/1976/06/25/...nt-in-tokyo-tonight-inoki-is-tokyo-rival.html

https://www.nytimes.com/1976/09/25/...-concludes-training-by-sparring-9-rounds.html

https://www.nytimes.com/1977/09/22/archives/ellis-floors-ali-twice.html

 

I'm taking Dubblechin's word for it, and speculating based upon the assumption that his representation is accurate. I've also heard it before, but don't have a source myself. (I'm not that knowledgeable about a lot of the fine details of training camps in this period either.)

My own position is: (1) It doesn't matter much for either man's all time standing. (2) If Dubblechin is right, it would be even easier for Retirement-Timeline boxing fans to massage into an orderly narrative whereby Ellis was always a great contender (better than most/all of the 60s guys Ali fought.)

 

Links above.

Photo of Jimmy Ellis wearing a Muhammad Ali Training Camp sparring partner shirt before Ali-Norton.

https://static01.nyt.com/images/201...t/ELLIS-2-obit-jumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp

He literally a full-time member of Ali's camp in the 70s. There are articles everywhere.

I doubt you looked very hard.

 

Well, everything I find on the web refers to his period as Ali's sparring partner in the 60's, but it could be that he returned in the later 70's as his career was winding down, just not heard anything about it.

 

Ok, which Norton fight?

 

Usually, injuries are supposed to come from damage to the legitimate scoring areas, though.

Like, imagine if Ali had banged his knee in training before FOTC. If Ali's knee suddenly snapped when he missed his footing in round 5, we wouldn't just conclude that Frazier had thereby proved himself superior to Ali head to head. Not even if Frazier argued that his high pace and constant jolts to Ali's body had put more strain on the knee than usual.

 

Hand and shoulder injuries aren't that uncommon in fights. Tucker had a hand injury going into the fight with Tyson and Thomas claimed a broken arm (don't think I've seen a secondary source for that one, though), Rigo had a badly bruised knuckle against Loma, Pac had a shoulder injury for PBF and Loma claimed one for Lopez.

They're not uncommon, but not usually used to doubt the result of a very one-sided fight.

 

Interesting.

 

I get the sense that Patterson's back problems were more serious than that. But even so, you don't think that hand and shoulder injuries can change the outcome of a fight? Liston and Vitali both quit because of shoulder injuries, and every Classic forum fantasy matchup I've ever seen assumes that neither fighter is injured.

If I posted, "Ali with a shoulder injury vs Marciano," people would either think I was being my usual weird self, or actively trying to illegitimately level the playing field against Ali.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/1975/06/10/archives/bugner-not-ali-makes-prediction.html

https://www.nytimes.com/1976/06/25/...nt-in-tokyo-tonight-inoki-is-tokyo-rival.html

https://www.nytimes.com/1976/09/25/...-concludes-training-by-sparring-9-rounds.html

https://www.nytimes.com/1977/09/22/archives/ellis-floors-ali-twice.html

 

The one where Jimmy Ellis is basically an MMA sparring partner is surreal.

I think Ali employed Joe Lewis (the karate champion) to prep for that fight as well. How Lewis managed to reconcile his own outsized ego to sparring partner status remains a mystery.