Why 87 Tyson beats 66 Ali...

TheOldTimer · Oct 29, 2013

Before entering a debate like this one has to acknowledge that proposing results for hypothetical match ups which will never take place can never be highly accurate. One would imagine that to best increase accuracy one has to have conducted extensive research into the lives and times of the fighters in question, to have reviewed extensive tape of the fights of the fighters and to have some understanding of their disposition. While extensive research for many past and present fighters is possible, for many it is not. Tape evidence of these fighters is often non-existent, or limited and of poor quality and so historic accounts and records are often relied upon to assess match ups. Frequently nostalgia has an overwhelming influence on these kind of debates with past fighters taking precedence over modern fighters. For example one might ask; who would win if Harry Greb fought Marvin Hagler? Many would say Greb would easily beat Hagler, but these match ups are inconceivable since footage of Greb's fights are no longer available whilst footage of Hagler's are.

Who would happen if a peak Tyson fought a peak Ali?
This is probably the most common debate in boxing and certainly a very intriguing match up. Thankfully this debate is possible since extensive film of both fighters is available. Before I comment on the fight and who I think would win and why, readers must accept that this prospective fight takes place before Robin Givens, Ruth Roper and Don King came into and out of Tyson's life, a time where Tyson was a very happy and a very proud fighter with an excellent reputation. It also takes place before Muhammad Ali's exile and arguably at the peak of his powers.
Ok here we go...
Muhammad Ali undeniably fought killers all throughout his career and was never intimidated, so to suggest a fight with Tyson would be any different would be anatomically inaccurate. As for Mike Tyson, he is inhibited not by the fighter, but by the moment, so it doesn't matter whether its Jack Johnson, or Joe Louis or Muhammad Ali in front of him, its how Tyson feels on the night that dictates his performance. This should mean that any pre-fight attempt at intimidation or psychological warfare by either fighter would be ineffective and not telling on the outcome of the fight. Therefore this fight is fought and won in the ring. Because of this I Immediately rule out the possibility of a Muhammad Ali win. Why?
Tyson at his peak is simply too skilled and Ali too flawed to beat Tyson. Tyson at his best was a finely tuned destructive machine, splendidly trained with excellent aggressive and defensive skills and he makes very few mistakes. Ali on the other hand has many defensive flaws and makes too many tactical errors in the ring. For example Ali did not know how to properly hold his hands, or how to duck (he pulled back or sidestepped), nor did he know how to parry or block a jab. (The Norton fights are most indicative of this). If you look at Ali on film, he held his right hand out to the side and did not have it in position to block a jab. That is why Ali had problems with certain fighters like Doug Jones and Norton, quick handed fighters with a good left jab and hook have always caused him great difficulty. Ali never learnt the rudiments of classical boxing, he relies on his reflexes and ultra-fast speed for his defense, this became apparent in his later career. Ali holds his hands low, he drops his right hand before throwing a right uppercut from the outside every time he throws it! These defensive pitfalls are perfect for a polished pressure fighting counter pucher like a Mike Tyson or a Joe Louis to exploit.
Ali's best offensive weapon is the left jab and the straight right hand. One of the best things that Tyson does at his peak is to get away from straight punches and to counter with aggression. Ali would be missing all over the place and receiving too many hard fast counter shots in return.
Tyson by KO or UD.

SILVER SKULL 66 · Oct 29, 2013

:nutKeep dreaming, Ali of 1966, would have kicked his ass, Ali had so many advantages, speed, stamina, hell Ali fought 15 rounders, power he stopped Liston 2x, and granite chinned Foreman, Chin Ali was only stopped by Holmes when he was way over the hill, Mental strength, Ali never fouled or bit anybody when he was losing, he also at 6-3 was 5 inch taller, better jab, footwork, and corner in Dundee, Rooney wasn't **** compared to Angelo, Ali also fought in a tougher more competitive era, were the guys were way more talented and gritty, tougher, compared to those tomato cans Tyson beat up in the 80's..
If the 66 Ali fought the 87 Tyson, in a 15 rounder I think Ali stops him around the 13th, Tyson always had lousy stamina..

Vinegar Hill · Oct 29, 2013

TheOldTimer said: ↑

Before entering a debate like this one has to acknowledge that proposing results for hypothetical match ups which will never take place can never be highly accurate. One would imagine that to best increase accuracy one has to have conducted extensive research into the lives and times of the fighters in question, to have reviewed extensive tape of the fights of the fighters and to have some understanding of their disposition. While extensive research for many past and present fighters is possible, for many it is not. Tape evidence of these fighters is often non-existent, or limited and of poor quality and so historic accounts and records are often relied upon to assess match ups. Frequently nostalgia has an overwhelming influence on these kind of debates with past fighters taking precedence over modern fighters. For example one might ask; who would win if Harry Greb fought Marvin Hagler? Many would say Greb would easily beat Hagler, but these match ups are inconceivable since footage of Greb's fights are no longer available whilst footage of Hagler's are.

Who would happen if a peak Tyson fought a peak Ali?
This is probably the most common debate in boxing and certainly a very intriguing match up. Thankfully this debate is possible since extensive film of both fighters is available. Before I comment on the fight and who I think would win and why, readers must accept that this prospective fight takes place before Robin Givens, Ruth Roper and Don King came into and out of Tyson's life, a time where Tyson was a very happy and a very proud fighter with an excellent reputation. It also takes place before Muhammad Ali's exile and arguably at the peak of his powers.
Ok here we go...
Muhammad Ali undeniably fought killers all throughout his career and was never intimidated, so to suggest a fight with Tyson would be any different would be anatomically inaccurate. As for Mike Tyson, he is inhibited not by the fighter, but by the moment, so it doesn't matter whether its Jack Johnson, or Joe Louis or Muhammad Ali in front of him, its how Tyson feels on the night that dictates his performance. This should mean that any pre-fight attempt at intimidation or psychological warfare by either fighter would be ineffective and not telling on the outcome of the fight. Therefore this fight is fought and won in the ring. Because of this I Immediately rule out the possibility of a Muhammad Ali win. Why?
Tyson at his peak is simply too skilled and Ali too flawed to beat Tyson. Tyson at his best was a finely tuned destructive machine, splendidly trained with excellent aggressive and defensive skills and he makes very few mistakes. Ali on the other hand has many defensive flaws and makes too many tactical errors in the ring. For example Ali did not know how to properly hold his hands, or how to duck (he pulled back or sidestepped), nor did he know how to parry or block a jab. (The Norton fights are most indicative of this). If you look at Ali on film, he held his right hand out to the side and did not have it in position to block a jab. That is why Ali had problems with certain fighters like Doug Jones and Norton, quick handed fighters with a good left jab and hook have always caused him great difficulty. Ali never learnt the rudiments of classical boxing, he relies on his reflexes and ultra-fast speed for his defense, this became apparent in his later career. Ali holds his hands low, he drops his right hand before throwing a right uppercut from the outside every time he throws it! These defensive pitfalls are perfect for a polished pressure fighting counter pucher like a Mike Tyson or a Joe Louis to exploit.
Ali's best offensive weapon is the left jab and the straight right hand. One of the best things that Tyson does at his peak is to get away from straight punches and to counter with aggression. Ali would be missing all over the place and receiving too many hard fast counter shots in return.
Tyson by KO or UD.
Click to expand...

Very good we'll thought out post. I disagree on the outcome but I've no problem with anyone taking peak Tyson over a prime Ali.
One thing though you mention some of Ali's flaws against Norton and later in his career but the fight concerns a '66 Ali. I think the flaws of the younger Ali were simply negated by his great speed,reflexes and movement.
I think early on particularly with his hand speed something which Ali wasn't really used to Tyson would be a big danger. However after 5 or 6 rounds Tyson's intensity tended to drop and as a pressure fighter he was no Joe Frazier, he was pretty mediocre on the inside and I think even the young Ali would be able to
tie him up and mess him about in there, that's assuming Tyson managed to get in close anyway.
As it goes on I see Tyson eating up more jabs and combinations and Ali winning a UD or a demoralised and busted up Tyson being stopped late.

BUDW · Oct 29, 2013

No way

HOUDINI · Oct 29, 2013

What works against ham and eggers probably wont work against the best.

Anubis · Oct 29, 2013

The peek-a-boo with hand speed to match his own was something 1966 Ali had already dealt with. It wasn't Muhammad's stylistic kryptonite, as Norton's combination of style and temperament proved to be. [For whatever it's worth, ringside commentators also repeatedly noted that Ken looked slightly taller than Ali when they met in ring center for instructions.]

Without bringing the relentless pressure of a Frazier, Mike's lack of height and reach would be a serious handicap. Patterson and Jerry Quarry both had quick hands with short arms, and neither was able to compete in two attempts. Tyson was even shorter than they, and would have difficulty getting close [then getting tied up when he did].

If you want a short guy who might give Ali headaches, you can have Qawi, a strong and aggressive counter-jabber who could cut off the ring efficiently. [No, Dwight wouldn't beat him, but I've long believed this is one LHW who could take peak Ali the championship distance consistently. He had the Futch template for giving Muhammad what Lowry gave Marciano, and Whitehurst gave Liston.]

TheOldTimer · Oct 29, 2013

Vinegar Hill said: ↑

Very good we'll thought out post. I disagree on the outcome but I've no problem with anyone taking peak Tyson over a prime Ali.
One thing though you mention some of Ali's flaws against Norton and later in his career but the fight concerns a '66 Ali. I think the flaws of the younger Ali were simply negated by his great speed,reflexes and movement.
I think early on particularly with his hand speed something which Ali wasn't really used to Tyson would be a big danger. However after 5 or 6 rounds Tyson's intensity tended to drop and as a pressure fighter he was no Joe Frazier, he was pretty mediocre on the inside and I think even the young Ali would be able to
tie him up and mess him about in there, that's assuming Tyson managed to get in close anyway.
As it goes on I see Tyson eating up more jabs and combinations and Ali winning a UD or a demoralised and busted up Tyson being stopped late.
Click to expand...

True Ali fought Norton after his exile but the fights are testament to the fact that Ali's skills could be negated quite easily where the right tactics were employed. Norton understood that if he kept his right hand high and jabbed with Ali, hit Ali while Ali was punching, Ali's jab would fall into the middle of his glove at which time Norton could fire his jab right down the pipethis is what destroyed Alis rhythm. Becuase Ali jabbed with his right hand by his side he was more susceptible to a counter jab. A classic boxer with his right hand held in proper position could catch Ali's jab in his glove and counter, Ali would be helpless to avoid it since his hand was not in the correct position. Eddie Futch had told norton what to do once he had manoeuvred Ali onto the ropes using this jabbing tactic, Dont do like all the other guys do. Dont throw your left hook to the head, hell pull back against the ropes and pepper you with counter-punches, instead start banging his body with both hands. That is how Norton, whose jab, speed, and power was inferior to Tyson, gave Ali hell in three very close fights.

Technically, Ali wasn't a great fighter; like you pointed out it was just that his physical gifts (speed, reflexes, and chin) were so astonishing that he was able to get away with things that would have gotten most fighters seriously hurt. Too many Ali fans believe that Ali was "unhittable" in his prime. This is a myth. George Chuvalo was able to get to Ali's body quite easily. Chuvalo who lacked both speed and accuracy managed to catch Ali flush on the chin with a solid right cross in the 13th. In both the Cooper fights Ali was hit cleanly by a very average fighter. Even in their second fight Cooper managed to land a fair number of left jabs and hooks as Ali leaned away from punches before Cooper was badly cut.
Ali's chin was among the best in heavyweight history, but no mans chin is impregnable. Ali was dropped by limited fighters like Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper. He was nearly ko'd by Coopers left hook. He was very fortunate the punch came at the end of the round. Dundee had to use smelling salts in the corner to revive him. He really struggled against Doug Jones. The lesson from that fight is not whether Ali deserved the decision, but that a small heavyweight of modest ability was able to be competitive with him. Fighters with quick hands and good left hands undoubtably and consistently caused him technical problems.

Some "analysts" never even bother to study films and therefore don't see the technical flaws in Ali's style. Instead they make a pointless argument as to how well some of Ali's opponents would have done against Tyson or the quality of Ali's opposition as compared to Tyson. It doesn't matter. Styles make fights. Norton has the style to give Ali fits; a right parrying hand to block Ali's jab, a good left jab in return, pressure on the inside, a strong body attack and a hook that Ali was susceptible to. Tyson had all these attributes and was a faster and far more powerful and explosive puncher than Ken Norton was.

Foxy 01 · Oct 29, 2013

TheOldTimer said: ↑

Before entering a debate like this one has to acknowledge that proposing results for hypothetical match ups which will never take place can never be highly accurate. One would imagine that to best increase accuracy one has to have conducted extensive research into the lives and times of the fighters in question, to have reviewed extensive tape of the fights of the fighters and to have some understanding of their disposition. While extensive research for many past and present fighters is possible, for many it is not. Tape evidence of these fighters is often non-existent, or limited and of poor quality and so historic accounts and records are often relied upon to assess match ups. Frequently nostalgia has an overwhelming influence on these kind of debates with past fighters taking precedence over modern fighters. For example one might ask; who would win if Harry Greb fought Marvin Hagler? Many would say Greb would easily beat Hagler, but these match ups are inconceivable since footage of Greb's fights are no longer available whilst footage of Hagler's are.

Who would happen if a peak Tyson fought a peak Ali?
This is probably the most common debate in boxing and certainly a very intriguing match up. Thankfully this debate is possible since extensive film of both fighters is available. Before I comment on the fight and who I think would win and why, readers must accept that this prospective fight takes place before Robin Givens, Ruth Roper and Don King came into and out of Tyson's life, a time where Tyson was a very happy and a very proud fighter with an excellent reputation. It also takes place before Muhammad Ali's exile and arguably at the peak of his powers.
Ok here we go...
Muhammad Ali undeniably fought killers all throughout his career and was never intimidated, so to suggest a fight with Tyson would be any different would be anatomically inaccurate. As for Mike Tyson, he is inhibited not by the fighter, but by the moment, so it doesn't matter whether its Jack Johnson, or Joe Louis or Muhammad Ali in front of him, its how Tyson feels on the night that dictates his performance. This should mean that any pre-fight attempt at intimidation or psychological warfare by either fighter would be ineffective and not telling on the outcome of the fight. Therefore this fight is fought and won in the ring. Because of this I Immediately rule out the possibility of a Muhammad Ali win. Why?
Tyson at his peak is simply too skilled and Ali too flawed to beat Tyson. Tyson at his best was a finely tuned destructive machine, splendidly trained with excellent aggressive and defensive skills and he makes very few mistakes. Ali on the other hand has many defensive flaws and makes too many tactical errors in the ring. For example Ali did not know how to properly hold his hands, or how to duck (he pulled back or sidestepped), nor did he know how to parry or block a jab. (The Norton fights are most indicative of this). If you look at Ali on film, he held his right hand out to the side and did not have it in position to block a jab. That is why Ali had problems with certain fighters like Doug Jones and Norton, quick handed fighters with a good left jab and hook have always caused him great difficulty. Ali never learnt the rudiments of classical boxing, he relies on his reflexes and ultra-fast speed for his defense, this became apparent in his later career. Ali holds his hands low, he drops his right hand before throwing a right uppercut from the outside every time he throws it! These defensive pitfalls are perfect for a polished pressure fighting counter pucher like a Mike Tyson or a Joe Louis to exploit.
Ali's best offensive weapon is the left jab and the straight right hand. One of the best things that Tyson does at his peak is to get away from straight punches and to counter with aggression. Ali would be missing all over the place and receiving too many hard fast counter shots in return.
Tyson by KO or UD.
Click to expand...

Sorry.

This simply can't happen. Despite the imbecilic rantings of self promoting idiots like Houdini, I nor probably any others do NOT hate Ali, and it is for this reason I'll state here and now that Tyson having the mental capacity of a 3 year old trying to assemble a 6 piece jig saw puzzle would ALWAYS be intimidated by someone with the charisma of Ali.

Tyson was no single minded Joe Frazier who could never, ever be swayed by Ali's even bigger mouth than his ego, which was why Joe was able to beat the fool in their first meeting, and would have always beaten the arrogant lump of **** in ANY first meeting.

A little anecdote regarding the build up to the FOTC.

Ali did his usual motormouth stupid predictions, basically saying he was going to do this, that, and the other to the insignificant Frazier.

Joe was asked what he thought. He replied.

" I don't know about none of that predicting, but I'll tell you this. If you say you gonna throw me through that window, at midnight tonight, I'll come looking for you, along about 5 to 12. "

That is the difference between a genuinely strong, confident man, and Tyson.

Would anyone like to name another fighter that was so mentally fragile that their trainer had to spend 5 times as many hours as he spent with him in the gym, trying to teach the fool philosophy, confidence, the difference between heroes, and cowards, blah, blah, blah?

Tyson was by nature, a bully, and a coward. D'Amato spent years trying to alter him, without success. That is the reason he could NEVER EVER beat an Ali.

Foxy 01 · Oct 29, 2013

SILVER SKULL 66 said: ↑

:nutKeep dreaming, Ali of 1966, would have kicked his ass, Ali had so many advantages, speed, stamina, hell Ali fought 15 rounders, power he stopped Liston 2x, and granite chinned Foreman, Chin Ali was only stopped by Holmes when he was way over the hill, Mental strength, Ali never fouled or bit anybody when he was losing, he also at 6-3 was 5 inch taller, better jab, footwork, and corner in Dundee, Rooney wasn't **** compared to Angelo, Ali also fought in a tougher more competitive era, were the guys were way more talented and gritty, tougher, compared to those tomato cans Tyson beat up in the 80's..
If the 66 Ali fought the 87 Tyson, in a 15 rounder I think Ali stops him around the 13th, Tyson always had lousy stamina..
Click to expand...

Seriously man, that was ALL you needed to say.:good

There is another thread where dickheads are claiming, he ONLY lost to Douglas because he was boozing, doing dope, and wasn't training properly. The reality of course is completely different.

The boozing, dope, and only training as and when he wanted to started back in 87 when the world titles, and big money ( with no D'Amato to keep a tight hold on the reins ) started coming in. Yet funnily enough during that time he beat Smith, Thomas, Tucker, Biggs, Holmes, Tubbs, Spinks, Bruno, and Williams.

No one was crying about his lackadasical attitude then though were they? I wonder if some of these fools are fans of ALL rapists, or just Tyson?

So it is pure bollox

hookfromhell · Oct 29, 2013

Ali TKO 15. Ali takes a beating, comes on strong late.

HOUDINI · Oct 29, 2013

First...noone ever saw prime Ali. Secondly dont look at his bouts with Norton since Ali was past prime. Also the Ali in bout one was untrained and was at a party the night before the fight. He looked terrible. Fight two Ali was in condition and boxed Norton very well. Most of the awkwardness Ali showed fighting Norton occurred in bout one. Tyson was a head case and in the end I dont believe he had the fortitude to beat Ali. Ali would take him to deep waters and Tyson did not like having to think in the ring. A tired confused Tyson would fall to pieces in round 12 ....as the ref stops the fight in a one sided beating.

ETM · Oct 29, 2013

I could see Tyson knocking Ali down early. He was an explosive force especially early in fights. I`m sure Ali wouldn`t stay down. He knew how to recover and get through those moments.

The problem for Mike Tyson is that he wouldn`t bring the consistant pressure that Joe Frazier brought as the fight gets into the mid and late rounds. Joe was so relentless going to the body round after round until the head became available. I dont think Tyson has the right mindset to defeat Ali.

Tyson wasn`t the infighter many people tend to think he was. He would welcome the clinches and Ali was a master at tying his opponent up after getting his own flurries off.

Ali by UD or possibly a late stoppage. Probably looking similar to the Buster Douglas fight.

Shake · Oct 30, 2013

TheOldTimer said: ↑

Because of this I Immediately rule out the possibility of a Muhammad Ali win. Why?
Tyson at his peak is simply too skilled and Ali too flawed to beat Tyson. Tyson at his best was a finely tuned destructive machine, splendidly trained with excellent aggressive and defensive skills and he makes very few mistakes. Ali on the other hand has many defensive flaws and makes too many tactical errors in the ring. For example Ali did not know how to properly hold his hands, or how to duck (he pulled back or sidestepped), nor did he know how to parry or block a jab. (The Norton fights are most indicative of this). If you look at Ali on film, he held his right hand out to the side and did not have it in position to block a jab. That is why Ali had problems with certain fighters like Doug Jones and Norton, quick handed fighters with a good left jab and hook have always caused him great difficulty. Ali never learnt the rudiments of classical boxing, he relies on his reflexes and ultra-fast speed for his defense, this became apparent in his later career. Ali holds his hands low, he drops his right hand before throwing a right uppercut from the outside every time he throws it! These defensive pitfalls are perfect for a polished pressure fighting counter pucher like a Mike Tyson or a Joe Louis to exploit.
Tyson by KO or UD.
Click to expand...

It is a wonder that he managed to win any fights at all. Your detailed analysis has finally exposed this fraud.

HOUDINI · Oct 30, 2013

Ali was a tall stand up boxer....he should not be ducking anything. In his prime he was a master of slipping punches. Many great boxers fought with hands low...check out Benny Leonard, Gene Tunney or Tommy Loughran. Prime Ali is who we should be speaking not any other.

boxerlove · Oct 30, 2013

The Norton fights are bad examples. Norton boxed Ali from the outside. I could just pull the Buster Douglas fights.

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Very advanced view on why Ali beats Tyson

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