Why AJ has a poor gas tank

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by NEETzschean, Mar 18, 2021.


Will AJ gas out against Fury?

Poll closed Mar 25, 2021.

  1. Yes

    43 vote(s)
    63.2%

  2. No

    25 vote(s)
    36.8%
Page 12 of 13
  1. MarkusFlorez99

    MarkusFlorez99 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    But all the while you contradict yourself because that along with multiple other factors can increase punch resistance. Aj at 237 doesn't automatically have worse punch resistance at 245 because of where he looses the muscle mass in addition to where the shot lands. As i said stronger neck muscles can improve punch resistance. You kerp looking at one facyor which is weight but keeo dismissing other factors that could have have a play in taking a shot better. Its not just weight. In addition to that you're argument is flawed as you still haven't listed why Ruiz's left hook in the rematch is weaker than his left hook in the first fight. You keep listing reasons but how was the angle different, where did it land differently, how was it slower when on film is clearly wasnt ?

    Ruiz did NOT have slower handspeed in the rematch, he just had slower feet. He hit him in the exact same spot in the rematch with more weight behind his punch. And there it is. Ruiz caught him off gaurd in the first fight with his left hook because Aj didn't see the shot coming. Now that he anticipated the shot better he took the shot better = better punch resistance. Whats also a fact is that the more muscle you have the more oxygen you need to make them work. Therfore more muscles can make your gas tank smaller. Which is the reason why Aj has a small gas tank. Its just a fact, backed up by science. Therfore Aj with less muscle has a better gas tank than Aj with more muscle.

    A lighter Aj might or might not gas quicker. Yes he's lighter and wouldnt be as strong but he has significantly less msucled mass saping his gas tank. Its a trade off. The fact of the matter is if Fury comes in heavy he'll be slow. Take a look at the wilder rematch

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    He's sloppy and his handspeed (in terms of combination punching) is slower than Ajs. If he comes forward he risks getting destroyed at mid range put down by a quick counter. He was open against one trick pony Wilder and Wilder landed glancing blows. And we all know Wilder is nowhere near as skilled as Joshua. His best chance is to box like he did against Wladimir. Then i can see him winning
     
    MarkusFlorez99, Mar 22, 2021
    MarkusFlorez99, Mar 22, 2021
    #166
  2. NEETzschean

    NEETzschean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    I never denied that other factors can increase punch resistance. AJ can still exercise his neck muscles at 245 so why would that change? His neck will be, if anything, thicker and stronger at a higher weight so it reinforces my argument. If AJ is lighter then his punch resistance will, other things being equal, be inferior. If AJ can run away from and clinches his morbidly obese opponent and doesn't blindly exchange with him, of course it's going to appear as though he takes the shots better, just as it appears he has a better gas tank when he fights at a slower pace. But to claim this is "evidence" only proves you have no idea what the word means. If AJ comes in 3-5% lighter than usual then that may be a significant difference in terms of getting bullied in the clinch, hurt or dropped and we certainly can't rule it out as you desire to for whatever reason.

    If Ruiz had landed a punch equal to the one he handed in the first fight, AJ would have been like Bambi on ice again. Watching a punch on a video can only give you so much of an idea of how hard or effective it was. Sometimes a fighter gets hit with a shot on the chin and takes it like it's nothing, other times he gets KO'd straight away. Factors like the precise angle of impact, how clearly he sees it coming, its exact power and prior sustained damage all come into play and video recordings can only go so far in determining how good a shot it was. One of the most obvious ways of determining this is how it affects the recipient. To claim that AJ's punch resistance was either no worse or better in a rematch is obviously a leap of logic which flies in the face of logic for reasons already explained.

    The key point that I made which you have been disputing all along (while also admitting that being lighter may reduce his punch resistance slightly) is that more weight on AJ = more shock absorption and harder to knock down.

    "A lighter Aj might or might not gas quicker. Yes he's lighter and wouldnt be as strong but he has significantly less msucled mass saping his gas tank. Its a trade off."

    So you've gone from stealing my arguments to moving the goalposts! Before it was "there's no way that AJ can gas more quickly at a lighter weight" to "he may or may not gas more quickly at a lighter weight, it's a trade off". Lmao. Obviously it's a trade off. My point was that you can't be so cavalier in declaring that AJ WILL have a better gas tank at a lighter weight. He may well gas more quickly because Fury will be able to dominate him in the clinch to an even greater degree. But it's good you've backtracked and agreed that I am correct once again, that's three points now.

    AJ was having serious problems with old Wlad outboxing him on the front foot and for my money that was a better version of AJ facing a faded version of Klitschko, who also had no physical advantages over AJ. Fury will do a number on AJ with his hand feints, beat him up with the jab and smother him. AJ will crack under the pressure and gas in the early-mid rounds. I say AJ is worse now than before because he's lost most of his confidence since his manhood was taken by fat Andy. Fury wasn't utilising movement against Wilder because that wasn't the gameplan as it was in the first fight when he was weight-drained coming off a 30 month food, alcohol and coke binge but he'll still be faster on his feet and with the jab than AJ. And if AJ opens up with combinations he will just gas out even earlier.
     
    NEETzschean, Mar 22, 2021
    NEETzschean, Mar 22, 2021
    #167
  3. MarkusFlorez99

    MarkusFlorez99 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Because he can slim down the rest of his body and exclusively target his neck muscles. Or he can train to better perceive punches and react. His head movement was better in the rematch and its been getting better. And perceiving punches in general means your body can brace for impact. Along with that having a better gas tank (loosing muscle mass) can also improve punch resistance because you're more susceptible to knockouts as you tire. ALL things equal yes his chin would decline but only by a slight margin. Nothing really notable, its not like he's dropping 20 pounds. and that's only when all other variables dont change, and they did
    (Aj coming at 237).

    You need to back up this claim. You basing it on the fact that Joshua got rocked the first time but the fact is Ruiz came in heavier can maintained the same handspeed. Therfore his shots carried more weight, and Joshua still took them better. You still haven't given an indepth analysis as to why Ruiz's shots didn't carry more power in the rematch You keep talking about I did. What are the angles ? And Aj didn't take any damagr in the first fight prior to round 3 have you considered that a temple shot can be worse than a shot plum on the chin ? Joshua saw them coming in the 2nd fight and took them significantly better. You said that too so that means Joshua had better punch resistance in the rematch. You're literally supporting my argument in spots in your post.

    Its already been established that there are multiple factors that can affect ones chin. More or less weight being one of them. But as I've said. Multiple factors. You're only clinging on to one.

    "So you've gone from stealing my arguments to moving the goalposts! Before it was "there's no way that AJ can gas more quickly at a lighter weight" to "he may or may not gas more quickly at a lighter weight, it's a trade off". Lmao. Obviously it's a trade off. My point was that you can't be so cavalier in declaring that AJ WILL have a better gas tank at a lighter weight. He may well gas more quickly because Fury will be able to dominate him in the clinch to an even greater degree. But it's good you've backtracked and agreed that I am correct once again, that's three points now."

    Im not sure he'll dominate Aj in the clinches as much as you'd like to believe. Aj even at 237 is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than Wilder. He was holding 280lb+ Ruiz easily. Joshua also knows how to throw short uppercuts and short hooks on the inside. The fact of the matter is thats one way to look at it but Fury coming in heavier would do more harm than good. He would control the clinches but mid to close range he'd get blasted out attempting to come forward. Aj is 10 times the combination puncher that Wilder and Wladimir are combined and Aj shines at midrange the best which would be bad for Fury providerd he attempts to walk Joshua down.

    And last but not least you mention Wlad but fail to realize Aj has improved since then, just like Fury improved after the cunningham fight and beat Wlad. You also fail to realize Wlad had the punching power at long to mid range that kept Aj at bay. Fury does not posess that kind of power at mid range let alone long range. Therfor Aj will not stay at range. And if Fury comes in heavy he wont be light on his feet enough to box Joshua like he did Klitschko. Also Klitschko isnt as agressive as Joshua
     
    MarkusFlorez99, Mar 22, 2021
    MarkusFlorez99, Mar 22, 2021
    #168
  4. NEETzschean

    NEETzschean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    Since you struggle with reading comprehension I'll say it again: weight isn't the only factor that affects punch resistance but a lighter AJ will have less shock absorption and get dropped more easily. The difference in this regard between AJ's heaviest recent weight of 254 and lightest of 237 is surely significant, as more modest gaps may be. AJ could increase his weight or reduce his weight and still train his head movement or work on his neck muscles. The point is that AJ's punch resistance will be lower than it otherwise would be, which you now seem to agree with. That was always the original point.

    What you're effectively saying is that AJ had better punch resistance because he kept at a safe distance and didn't trade. I would say he had worse punch resistance in a direct physical sense but his style mitigated the damage he took. If Ruiz had landed the exact same shot on the temple, it would have had the same effect if not greater. But a more defensively aware and cautious AJ didn't give Ruiz such a good chance to land it.

    You need to watch the fight again: AJ was easily getting pushed around in the clinches by Ruiz. Height and reach also make a big difference in the clinch because the taller man can lean a higher proportion of his weight down on his opponent and his longer arms allow him to initiate the clinch more easily. AJ has poor stamina as we know and this will rapidly empty his gas tank, taking a lot of the force off his punches, stopping him from throwing as regularly and reducing his ability to take punches. AJ has surely improved technically since the Wlad fight but he has declined psychologically, particularly in regards to his confidence, punch resistance and therefore gas tank as well. His steroid-fuelled weightlifter body is also older now so it will be even worse in regards to energy efficiency; after all he gassed in three rounds against Pulev and the Fury fight will be 10x the pressure. And the thought of a 273 lbs Fury coming forward to bully him, beat him up and knock him out as he did Wilder will cripple him mentally. If AJ has been such a great combination puncher, why was he not able to let fly against Wlad except on a select couple of occasions before the 11th? Why have his only early KO's been against a frozen Charles Martin and mid-level journeyman Eric Molina? Fury easily punches hard enough on the front foot to get AJ's respect and AJ is far less aggressive these days and not confident enough in either his chin or gas tank to open up on Fury. Of course you'd like Fury to weight-drain himself, run away for 12 rounds and pray the judges do him a favour because this is his most likely path to getting robbed and you'd hate to see Fury walk AJ down, manhandle him in the clinch, beat him up and knock him out. But provided Fury comes in heavy, this will be what happens.
     
    NEETzschean, Mar 22, 2021
    NEETzschean, Mar 22, 2021
    #169
  5. MarkusFlorez99

    MarkusFlorez99 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Lol you're all over the place stop it. original point was this

    Thats where i disagreed. "If he dropped mass then he'd loose some of his punch resistance" thats only if all other factors are equal. But mass is only one factor of punch resistance. You're can't be so sure his chin would be weaker at 237 than 245 if thats all you're going by. Because multiple factors are in play. he saw Ruiz's shots coming better. Ruiz nailed him hard in the rematch and Joshua shrugged it off. Based off evidence Joshua in the 2nd fight against Ruiz did NOT have an inferior chin.

    Wrong again. He was more cautious and was better defensively but he still got clipped with hooks. The difference is he expected them, not because he rolled shots over and was more defensive about shots landing. You keep bring us that if "Ruiz landed the exact same shot on the temple, it would have had the same affect if not greater" but he did land on the temple in the rematch. See round 8:
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    he also landed a clear temple shot in round 6 as well
    Yet it clearly did NOT scramble him like it did in the first fight. You're denying observable evidence its hilarious. He also handled Ruiz quite well in most of the clinches. Watch the entire fight also didn't Fury have steroid allegations earlier in his career ? Hmmm.

    And in regards to the Ajs combinations he doesn't have early KOs at world level because he doesn't charge in Mike Tyson style. He pressure opponents at mid range and has let his hands go NUMEROUS time. He did it in spots against Klitschko because Klitschko has bone shattering punching power therfore Aj was more cautious. Aj was cautious against Pulev because he claimed he'd go into that fight with a boxer puncher mentality, now he claims he going into the Fury fight calm and he's going to move forward. Fury does not possess Klitschkos or even Whytes power or even Parkers speed. If Fury comes in heavy he will not be light on his feet and it would make it easier for Aj to pick his shots to the body at mid range. Aj is legit faster than Fury
     
    MarkusFlorez99, Mar 22, 2021
    MarkusFlorez99, Mar 22, 2021
    #170
  6. NEETzschean

    NEETzschean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    "he saw Ruiz's shots coming better. Ruiz nailed him hard in the rematch and Joshua shrugged it off."

    As I said, this is stylistic. There's no direct comparison to be made because he fought totally differently and took different punches. No two punches are the same and watching a video can only tell you so much about a punch. AJ was getting pushed around in the clinches in the rematch easily and your comparison between Ruiz and Fury's weight is nonsense because Fury has the height to leverage more of his weight onto AJ and the speed and reach to wrap him up at will. If AJ is lighter, the same shot will hurt him more and have a greater chance of knocking him down. But if he fights less aggressively when he's lighter, maybe he will be harder in practice to hurt or to knock down. This was the case against Ruiz.

    AJ isn't faster than Fury in any respect except combination speed. He's even slower on his feet than Wilder and is slower with a single shot. AJ can say he's going to be aggressive against Fury but why wasn't he aggressive against ancient Pulev: a shorter non-puncher with no defence? Maybe because he was concerned about his chin and especially his gas tank, which did fail him in the 3rd round. I hope AJ does go in aggressively because at least that will make the fight interesting. After AJ gasses his punch power declines, punch frequency declines, speed of punch and movement declines, reflexes decline, punch resistance declines, mental fortitude declines, ring IQ declines and it will embolden Fury. Energy is everything in a physical sense, so gassing hugely reduces your effectiveness as a fighter in every respect.
     
    NEETzschean, Mar 24, 2021
    NEETzschean, Mar 24, 2021
    #171
  7. robert ungurean

    robert ungurean Богдан Philadelphia Full Member

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    He needs to get off the Dianabol
     
    robert ungurean, Mar 24, 2021
    robert ungurean, Mar 24, 2021
    #172
  8. MarkusFlorez99

    MarkusFlorez99 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    There is a direct comparison to be made. You are right that no 2 punches are the same. As a matter of fact Ruiz came in 20 pounds heavier and still maintained his quick hands so the likelyhood is Ruiz may have actually punched harder in the second fight. The video evidence is there. Watch it. His footspeed at 270 is no quicker than Ajs at 240. WATCH THE FIGHT with him and the Wilder. You can see how sloppy he is with his mid to close rannge attacks. He'll get clipped with a counter attempting to move forward and trying to wrap him up. Midrange is where Aj shines so if you want Fury to win you'd better pray he doesn't attempt to walk Aj down until Aj gasses. If Fury fights Aj agressivly he's coming off second best in the exchanges. This isnt even debatable.

    Aj has slower feet than Wilder because Ajs footwork is actually fundamentally sound. Wilder with his fast feet still cant box on the backfoot or even the front foot because he doesn't have correct footwork so it doea not matter. An olympic runner will have faster feet than Aj if they ignore fundamentals but it wont help them because they cant box. Thats why Fury destroyed him. Wilder throws 1 punch at a time. Joshua does not so it does not matter if Wilder is faster with one punch. Combinations are what can catch Fury as shown in the Wallin fight. And he wasn't agressive against Pulev because he wanted to improve on his boxing. He said he'd take a Sonny Liston approach as in he'd mix his boxing and his fighting. Like he showed. He beat down pulev aftee catching him with a slip/pull counter but then continued to box with Pulev.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/talksp...ulev-bell-brit-sonny-liston-knockout-win/amp/

    Aj gasses when he throws the Kitchen sink but if he's fighting just to break down an opponent as shown in the Whyte fight and Povetkin fight he can hold his gas tank. And funny you talk about gassing because Fury was breathing heavily and started gasing in the Wilder fight due to his high work rate. Maybe he doesn't usually gas because his work rate is usually absurdly low.
     
    MarkusFlorez99, Mar 24, 2021
    MarkusFlorez99, Mar 24, 2021
    #173
  9. NEETzschean

    NEETzschean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    I'm glad you admit that no two punches are the same, therefore a direct comparison between two punches under completely different conditions is impossible. For one or a combination of reasons, AJ was better able to deal with the less concentrated and fewer power punches he received in the Ruiz rematch but his lower weight was only a hinderance in terms of his physical punch resistance. It may however have been a stylistic benefit to him in making him faster, which would have allowed him to take fewer punches. But that is not what I call "punch resistance". It's unlikely that Usyk's physical punch resistance is better than Chisora's but Usyk sustains far less damage because of his evasive style and speed.

    Wasn't AJ a vastly better combination puncher than Wlad? Didn't he also have sharper counters? But 41 year old, 18 months inactive and beaten Wlad fighting away managed to outbox AJ with his jab for most of the fight, an AJ which I believe is superior due to his greater confidence and less wear and tear on his artificial body than the AJ we have today. And Wlad doesn't have the physical and psychological advantages over AJ that Fury has, or I would argue the technical proficiency. Fury isn't going to charge forward against AJ but he's most likely going to be gradually moving forward, using a lot of feints and subtle movement and hold the centre of the ring behind his jab. He will also probably be even better than he was against Wilder because of the time he's had to improve his front foot game. And AJ looked very tired against Whyte, who is also notorious for gas tank problems (like Povetkin). When 270 lbs Fury is tired, 240 lbs AJ will have nothing left, same as Wilder. It's not about your standalone gas tank but your gas tank relative to the other man. AJ has a puncher's chance for the first few rounds and a chance of a robbery decision if it goes the distance. Other than that he can only hope that Fury gets on the coke again.
     
    NEETzschean, Mar 25, 2021
    NEETzschean, Mar 25, 2021
    #174
  10. MarkusFlorez99

    MarkusFlorez99 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    No 2 punches are the same but a direct comparison can be made because I've already proved that the likelyhood is Ruiz punched harder in the second fight due to the fact that his punches carried more weight when he threw them at a similar speed to the first fight. Therefore strengthening my argument that Aj taking those shots to the temple brushing them off means he doesn't have weaker punch resistance at 237 than 245. He saw the punches coming therfore he took them better. Its a simple concept. Nobody is talking about him taking fewer punches but what i am talking about is him taking them better. That IS punch resistance. Theres no way around it. Its over.

    He outboxed Joshua because it was his 19th fight. Who was Fury's 19th fight ? Vinny Madalone ? LMAO. Joshua is easily improved since then. He can box and move better and can counter significantly better. And can pick his shots better as well. You see thats the whole problem. Whether or nor Fury charges forward or slowly moves forward he's still moving forward. Wlad did not press forward or exchage with Aj until Aj gassed. Aj isn't going to be backing up. And he also knows how to use a slip counter. At 271 Fury was open to Wilders right hand. Well Aj can do more than throw a right hand. Whatever Fury does when he moves forward he's still moving forward. He's coming off of those exchages second best. Aj has significantly better front foot game than Fury. Fury's best bet is to box on the outside and keep away from the pocket until he sees Aj start to gas. If he moves forward at the start his chances of winning plummet. Its impressive when you're moving forward against like likes of Joseph parker (who can throw quick combinations and can fight on the inside) its not impressive to move forward against Wilder because Wilder cannot fight on the inside. All he knows how to do is throw one punch. You're gassed over the Wilder win. Its not as impressive as you think considering Wilder ducked Whyte and Joshua
     
    MarkusFlorez99, Mar 25, 2021
    MarkusFlorez99, Mar 25, 2021
    #175
  11. Ukansodoff

    Ukansodoff Deontay plz stop ducking Joshua. Thank you. Full Member

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    Yep he tire no doubt. Fury is very smart and will push a fast paced fight. I dont think he will be as aggressive as he was with Wilder and he will frustrate AJ and get him chasing and swinging.

    Joshua didn't dumb either but Fury will get the better of exchanges points scoring wise and then get out and Joshua will know he has to do more to stay on the judges cards.
     
    Ukansodoff, Mar 25, 2021
    Ukansodoff, Mar 25, 2021
    #176
    NEETzschean likes this.
  12. NEETzschean

    NEETzschean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    Seeing a punch coming is not physical punch resistance, it's largely stylistic. AJ's physical punch resistance was other things equal inferior but his style was better able to cope with Ruiz's punches. A weak-chinned fighter may take an individual punch better than a strong-chinned fighter if he sees it coming, it doesn't mean his physical punch resistance is superior.

    Fury's 15th fight was an unbeaten Chisora and AJ was actually older than Fury when he fought Wlad, fighting an old, inactive, beaten Wlad at home. Wlad was holding his ground against AJ and outboxing him, though in the early rounds it was competitive. AJ gassed after trying to take Wlad out in the 4th and spent 5 or 6 rounds holding on against a tentative Wlad, waiting to get a second wind. You can talk about all of these mysterious technical improvements that AJ has made but what I see is a highly tentative, nervous fighter whose stamina is likely to be even worse than it was against Wlad. AJ was tentative in the extreme against Parker in a close fight, had a lot of help from the referee and was nowhere near as aggressive as Whyte was. AJ was offered the fight against Wilder in America but didn't take it because AJ didn't feel comfortable fighting away from home, as we could see in Ruiz 1. Bear in mind that you're writing a cheque that AJ has to cash. If Fury demolishes AJ (a supposed 50-50 fight according to you and many others) it's only going to make Fury look that much better.
     
    NEETzschean, Mar 25, 2021
    NEETzschean, Mar 25, 2021
    #177
  13. MarkusFlorez99

    MarkusFlorez99 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Its not stylistic. Seeing a punch coming means you and your body can brace for it. Therfore improving punch resistance. Thats all it is. A glass chinned fighter would still get knocked out by a powerpunch even if he saw it coming.

    Ah yes Dereck Chisora. Wait a minute he lost to Whyte twice, who was Ajs 15th fight LMAO. Just as you tell me Fury is improving his front foot game. Joshua is improving all around. Fury outboxed Klitschko but Klitschko was extremely gunshy. The same cannot be said for Aj. When Klitschko let his hands go he had success in round 12. Now imagine if it was Joshua. Can Fury win ? Obviously as he's the favorite and has better boxing ability than Klitschko. But if Fury fights like you says he will and tries to pressure Joshua. Ajs odds of winning skyrocket and Fury's plummet
     
    MarkusFlorez99, Mar 25, 2021
    MarkusFlorez99, Mar 25, 2021
    #178
  14. NEETzschean

    NEETzschean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    You see more punches coming if you change your style to be more negative rather than charging into a blind exchange, which is what AJ did. A fighter with inferior punch resistance could take a punch better than a guy with superior punch resistance if the former sees the punches coming and the latter doesn't. Hence AJ could have had inferior punch resistance (and other things being equal, did at a lighter weight) but still took the punches better.

    Chisora was robbed in the first Whyte fight because the older fighter is less marketable and may well have won the second if not for the point deduction which encouraged him to press the action. For all Chisora's limitations, he has a much better chin than Whyte, who isn't far away from fighting a trilogy with him if grandpa Povetkin KO's him again. Klitschko wasn't gunshy for no reason, just as Haye wasn't gunshy against Wlad for no reason: Fury nullified Wlad's offence and schooled him. If you're right that AJ is greatly improving his all-round game then you will have to give Fury maximum credit when he beats him.

    My prediction: Fury outboxes AJ for the first few rounds, AJ gets desperate and tries to unload on Fury early-mid and gasses. Fury smothers AJ, mauls him for a few rounds and stops him mid-late.
     
    NEETzschean, Mar 25, 2021
    NEETzschean, Mar 25, 2021
    #179
  15. MarkusFlorez99

    MarkusFlorez99 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    You can change your style but punch resistance is punch resistance. Its physical and mental. Aj saw it and took it better. He didnt slip the punch and ride the shot off. He took it better because he saw it coming and braced for it. Therfore yes when he is defensive his punch resistance is better. Thats the mental aspect, anticipating the punch.

    Fury did nullify him but wlads mentality also has a part to play. He was never one to take a lot of risks after he got sparked out 3 times. Thats why he didn't do anything until he realized its now or never and he let his hands go in round 12 and had success. The likelihood is he would have been more agressive in the rematch. And that could have troubled Fury
     
    MarkusFlorez99, Mar 25, 2021
    MarkusFlorez99, Mar 25, 2021
    #180
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