Why are Ali and Leanard underrated in a ATG ranking sense?

In terms of talent and potential leonard could really be the best ever but those missing 5 years and his post hagler run certainly rule him out of my top 15.

 

:good Very true,ron.

 

Some of his victories were highly controversial though.

But his record is who's who in the heavyweight division.

 

I agree regarding some of his wins,but isn't that true of most champions of any longevity?
Many dispute Leonard's draw with Hearns and his win over Hagler.

 

Of course.

Just nit-picking, i guess

They probably have they reasons considering Leonard (if i'm not mistaken) himself admitted he lost

 

I watched Leonard vs Hearns #2 2day , @ rd 8 , Hearns buckled Leonard and Richard Steele got between them @ stalled d fight , it seems 2 me that it prevented a 3rd (2nd @ that point of d fight) KD from occurring , maybe even better .
Hearns beat Leonard in this fight and if any scoring system allows 1 2 score otherwise , that scoring system must b replaced .
Same with Bonavena vs Frazier #1 , same with Puritty vs Morrisson .

 

Wasn't quoting you on your lists, frankie. Just having fun with it.

OT: What's your take on Sal Sanchez... @126, in a p4p sense and level of opposition in your unique world of opinions and conclusions.

 

based on resume i think he is d greatest ever reigning champion @ 126 , h2h i think he may b d best there ever . p4p he seems 2 me as in d very same type of Monzon , taking everything in2 account . Not his fault he died , it's not that he retired even . I think he might have achieved about as much as monzon , but vs more respectable (4 d respective times they fought their opponents) opposition . I rank him 2 places higher than JCC and i think that they r close 2 . his resume also tops Jofre's .

 

I agree. Although I put him top 10 if Duran is top 10, since he beat Duran easily and all the greats Duran lost to. I do think Ray's retirement in 1982 was set up a little. He knew he was fighting the best guys and that with Hearns he barely won the fight. He knew he had a great legacy at that point, and working for HBO he could stay in the spotlight until he handpicked an old Hagler. I think he could feel he was not as motivated in 1982 and the retina issue was an issue, but not the whole reason he retired. I think he put his all out beating Benitez,Duran and Hearns. I think it was all set up. To think he won fighter of the decade in 1990 for the 1980's was ridiculous. He didn't fight for half the decade like you said.

 

1)
actually, many people including Bob Arum, Hearns, were picking Leonard to win as well as the regular joe on the street. and Antuofuermo were saying hagler was vulnerable

Sugar should have followed up and tried his luck against an up U coming Micheal Nunn but he wasnt too confident about his chances. so I'll take that as a no, he would not do well against Mike who, I feel would destroy Leonard with his big left uppercut.

leonard as you know, is vulnerable to uppercuts like the one Norris used to humble him and Micheal had a lethal uppercut that Ray would not survive. I just dont see him making it thru all 12 rounds. Expect to see a decapitation by 3

2) He offered a rematch to hearns if he admitted he lost. that's his way of backing out of it, similar to that 500K offer he made to Pryor

3) pryor's career high was not 500K and not considered a serious offer

4) you can't clean out a division unless you start making defenses.

5) regardless, he went ahead and rematched them both along w Hagler. the question is, why couldnt he do it a few years sooner? Bet you wouldnt care to answer it

 

What inadequacies do you see in Walker's performances? He had dominant wins against HOFers Britton (dropping him several times), Tendler, and Berlenbach (LHW champ - also dropping him) and blasted out LHW champ & HW contender McTigue in a single round.

Walker was the undisputed WW champ for 4 straight years - longer than any title run that Leonard had - and had big wins over Britton, Tendler, Shade, McTigue, Malone, Latzo, and Friedman during that time. His only loss during that stretch was up at MW against ATG Harry Greb.

He also held the undisputed MW title for another 3-4 years, beat Flowers, Malone, McTigue (KO 1), Milligan, Berlenbach, Hudkins, and Lomski during that time, and only lost up at LHW to ATG Tommy Loughran.

 

considering all the great fighters that have been, i might even say that i might be over-rating Ray leonard to put him among the top 20 even.
he's thereabouts but not necessarily. and definitely not top 10. I'd have to do a list.