Why Are There No Good Heavyweight Inside Fighters Anymore?

Well countered!:bbb Wasn't following boxing much by then, but Cooper's a brilliantly adept shout. Bert's nickname? "Smokin'!" His trainer? Joe Frazier! Yet another Futch connection.

I think of Tyson's overhand right and right uppercut [the latter especially on Joe's boy Marvis, and also Buster Douglas], but he certainly possessed the physical template to double up his right to body and head with seamless execution.

My problem with Mike is that he wasn't really the infighter Jerry Quarry was, and yes, I think Bert Cooper can be argued for as a more adept infighter than Tyson.

Sometimes, I wonder what Futch might have done with Mike, instead of D'Amato. Like Carlos Ortiz, I have some reservations about the optimal efficacy of the peek-a-boo, and believe Tyson may have gone farther as an attrition oriented infighter than a quick knockout one punch specialist. He had a better chin than Frazier, good vision in both eyes, and one punch knockout power in both hands. Joe had better focus though [because, in part, of physical limitations and progressive medical difficulties Tyson did not share], and Frazier was dealing with the likes of Bonavena, Machen, Whipperman, Chuvalo and Doug Jones, while Mike was being fed an early diet of one punch, single round set-ups.

Give him Frazier's developmental professional competition [with the challenges of adverse resistance posed by that, especially the early crisis in Bonavena I], and Tyson either may have retired undefeated, or gone very deep into his career before sustaining any defeats. Looking at Tyson's record, and the competition out there at the time, I'm not convinced Lennox, Holyfield and Douglas survive the limit with him if his inside potential was maximized. Give Mike Eddie Futch instead of Cus, then neither do I think Tyson would have been psyched out by the notion of taking on an aged Foreman, but far better prepared for that challenge through Futch's 1970s experiences against George with Frazier. Give Mike the infighting expertise of Futch, and the towering Bowe does not successfully out-compete him at close quarters.

Tyson achieved remarkably, despite the approach he utilized, not because of it. Nature intended him to be a hustling, attrition oriented specialist, and he needed his early opposition to extend and challenge him, not lay down at his feet. [Angelo Dundee might have been another suitable alternative to D'Amato for more appropriately developing Mike, when you look at how Angie matched and brought up SRL.]

 

who would they go on the inside with the Klitchkos? Who are really superheavyweights.

 

:nodTherein lies the problem, doesn't it? How absurd is it, that we can't visualize a heavyweight with that build, stature and hooking ability, performing inside?

You're correct, and that's a suitable point to challenge on. Really, it's about how Jerry was taking on who he was taking on, at the time he attempted it. Even Chuvalo and Bonavena didn't attempt this with Joe. The Canadian stood his ground, and made Frazier apply angles, while the Argentinian neutralized him inside with clinches. I think Joe respected Jerry to his dying day for taking him on as he did in 1969.

Also, as torrid as the infighting pace was, it was also about as cleanly contested as such a close quarter contest could have been, rulebook, as well as textbook. Mercante lauded Joe as a clean fighter for his style of infighting. [He also described Ali as a very dirty one for his headhunting mode of sticking and moving. I'd likewise throw Larry "Mr. Thumbs" Holmes into that rogue's gallery of stylish cheats, although neither required those tactics for their successes].

Jerry was usually much more of a conservative chess player, a strong counter-puncher with quick hands and short arms, who tended to bait traps, a-la Spencer, so we don't see him infighting or swarming much [Shavers being an exception for swarming]. With guys like Patterson, we see him prefer to clinch inside, and opt for maneuvering between the referee's breaks. He could initiate, but it wasn't his characteristic mode of operation.

Frazier I was amazing, in part because it was so atypical of JQ to eschew clinching while leading and attacking with that level of [costly] abandon. I'd be amazed with anybody going inside with that 1969 version of Frazier and having the success Jerry did, however fleeting [and we're extremely fortunate to have the complete footage of Frazier-Quarry I, which was missing in its entirety for decades]. Unfortunately, footage of Quarry-Mathis doesn't appear to exist. Larry Middleton, at 6'4"-6'5" with a long jab might also provide some examples of Jerry's initiatory infighting and bodypunching in the late rounds, but it hasn't turned up on-line, as far as I know. [Hard to imagine Jerry decisioning Mathis and Middleton the way he did with mid range countering alone.]

Dempsey gets a lot of mileage for his mobility during the opening minute and a half against Willard, Jerry for his infighting ability in the opening round of Frazier I, and Louis shows his effectiveness in retreat during the Godoy rematch. Jersey Joe Walcott goes on the front foot with Ten Hoff, and does well at it. Ali does the same over the first five rounds with Mac Foster, and consistently goes underneath and to the body with a retreating Blue Lewis. We see Gene Fullmer play cutie, cautiously sticking and moving with the deadly Eduardo Lausse. If these footages didn't exist, we might not believe them capable of these tactics at all. [Let's add Walker-Hudkins II to that mix. Mickey boxed Ace in a way which he might not be believed capable of today if it wasn't for that footage, continually retreating in the pocket while outscoring the Nebraska Wildcat handily.]

There's no footage anywhere of Marciano applying mobile footwork [as Dempsey did to open Willard, and as Max Baer did through several rounds with Carnera], and we've already discussed this inability to see Tyson fighting inside, despite the completeness of his career footage. Jerry's career footage is very incomplete, but I've a hard time envisioning him decisioning Mathis and Middleton the way he did without inside work. That was no Tyson opening the first round with a peak Frazier in there. Jerry knew what he was doing at close quarters, a place he'd obviously been in before. [I'd also like to mention here that Ali's infighting during Manila gets overlooked, as he repeatedly spins Frazier's head with hooks while slowly retreating into the corners. Carlos Padilla denied Ali his preferred clutching, forcing him to punch it out, making Ali do something with his work rate fans may not have expected him to succeed at. I can't think off-hand of an example of Holmes producing sustained infighting like that, although Larry was a more accomplished and dangerous body puncher later in his career.]

Somebody else I'd like to mention as a competent infighting heavyweight once he had the chance to get going was Duane Bobick. Although his career was a wash, we do get to see a glimpse of his effectiveness inside during his stoppage of Chuck Wepner. An attrition oriented body punching specialist, he did have some measure of amateur success as well, and was widely reported to have won the 1971 Pan Am Games on aggression and infighting. [In Munich, Duane again had inside success over former Pan Am Games victim Stevenson in round two, before Teo lowered the boom in the third.] Bobick never looked as good inside as Jerry Quarry did for a couple rounds on that one special event in 1969 though, even though it was Duane's usual style. Bobick's manager and training partner was none other than Frazier, yet another link to the Futch legacy.