Not talking about robbing ,I'm talking about numerous murders. Kearns nick name was" Doc", Madden's was "Killer". You don't get 20 years in Sing Sing for misdemeanours !
I dont think either man's chin was impressive against the punchers, Dempsey, Baer and Louis but to their credit they kept getting up. Primo looked strong against Sharkey and others but both men failed equally against the power punchers
Willard 's chin was tested against Smith,Moran,and Morris he had a very good mandible. Carnera was dropped 3 times by184lbs Musina, light hitting Sharkey and Stribling.His chin was nowhere near Willard's
I dont know Willard quit in a fight with Joe Cox was Ko'd badly by Jack Dempsey and then stopped by Firpo, he is listed as having won 22 fights lost 5 and a draw. Primo was 76-6 after the Tommy Loughran fight and had not been stopped (Stribling dropped him with a low blow) Primo fought Paulino Uzcudun 2 X and Sharkey 2X Ernie Shaaf and only Louis and Baer Ko'd him in 1934-& 35, later on he was stopped by Haynes and Musina but Primo already had close to 90 fights, Uzcudun was a pretty good puncher stopping an Old Harry Wills among others and Primo beat him I dont see much of a difference in the 2 giants to call one chin better than the other both men were bounced around by Dempsey and Louis respectively but Primo had over double the fights that Willard had by then. An argument could be made either way
Quitting in a fight does not demonstrate the quality of your chin. Willard was an old man of 41 when he ran out of gas with Firpo who would have floored a prime Carnera without much trouble. Willard was softened up by body shots from the heavy hitting Firpo before finally succumbing . "Firpo had been concentrating much of his assault on big Jess's midsection on advice of his trainer Jimmy DeForest, hoping to wear him down. In the 8th round Willard abandoned his defensive tactics and rushed at Firpo. There was an exchange and Firpo hurt him with a hard right just below the heart. Seeing his man sag, the Argentine opened a blistering assault with savage rights to the Kansas giant's body and head. One thunderous right crashed Willard's jaw again and sent him reeling into the ropes. Dazed and groggy he dropped slowly to one knee, shaking his head as the referee counted him out. " Uzcudun was not a puncher ,apart from the 2 months shy of 38 Wills,who did he ever KO? You make me smile ,you dismiss Ron Lyle as a puncher saying who did he stop ? But now boost Uzcudun? Nonsensical and contrary. The difference is plain Willard when prime, was only stopped once, by a monster puncher in fact that was only down . Willard took punches from the three very good bangers that I have mentioned without being floored. Carnera was dropped by indifferent punchers. The best to punchers he met nearly killed him , I don't see any basis for argument at all. I'll ask the Forum, how's that?
"Owney just got the bad press" Well, to some extent this might be true. He was convicted of one homicide, but 10 to 20 implies it was not first-degree, or he would have gotten the chair. After he was released on parole after 9 years, he more or less kept his nose clean for the rest of his life, only serving a brief stretch for parole violation which was overturned I think and he was quickly set free. His involvement in "numerous" murders is gossip and hearsay, especially from the twenties on. He was shady, but ran something like 20 nightclubs including famous ones like The Cotton Club and Stork Club which were frequented by a high class clientele not excluding J. Edgar Hoover himself. I know there are a lot of quotes from entertainers on how much better they were treated by the "gangsters" like Madden who owned nightclubs than supposedly respectable Hollywood producers who demanded their women employees (and sometimes the men too) sleep with them to get work.
Madden quickly became a fierce fighter, known for his skill with a lead pipe and gun in fights with rivals the Hudson Dusters. Madden gained the nickname "the Killer" after gunning down an Italian gang member in the streets, after which he shouted, "Owney Madden, 10th Avenue!" Despite the public nature of the murder, no witnesses came forward linking Madden to the crime.[citation needed] This content is protected Gophers c. 1910, Madden back row, middle, leaning forward By 1910, at age 18, Madden had become a prominent member of the Gophers and was suspected in the deaths of five rival gang members. His reputation soon gained him leadership of one of the three factions of the Gophers. He was earning as much as $200 a day from the Gophers' criminal activities, such as the gang's protection racket which forced local businessmen to pay in the face of firebomb threats. During this time, Madden enjoyed an opulent lifestyle, and he was often accompanied by several women. However, he became known for his violent jealousy when he shot and killed a store clerk named William Henshaw, who had asked out one of Madden's girls while on board a trolley. Henshaw initially survived the attack and identified Madden as his assailant. When Henshaw later died of his wounds, police arrested Madden. Though the attack had numerous witnesses, the case had to be dismissed after no corroborating witnesses came forward. Over the next three years, the Gophers reached the height of their power as Madden recruited various gunmen into the gang. As Madden began encroaching into rivals' territory, particularly the Hudson Dusters, he was ambushed and shot eleven times outside a 52nd Street dance hall by three members of the Dusters, on November 6, 1912. Madden survived the attack, however, and refused to identify his attackers to police, stating "Nothing doing. The boys'll get 'em. It's nobody's business but mine who put these slugs in me!" Within a week of his release, several members of the Dusters had been killed. Boxing[edit] In 1931, shortly before the end of Prohibition, Madden got out of bootlegging and entered into partnership with boxing promoters, "Broadway" Bill Duffy and George Jean "Big Frenchie" DeMange. Between them, they controlled the careers of several boxing champions including Max Baer and Primo Carnera. As Carnera's manager, Madden arranged fixed fights which led eventually to Carnera's winning the NBA World Heavyweight Championship, in 1933. Carnera held onto the title for nearly a year, until reporters' suspicions about fixed fights led Madden to desert the Italian strongman, setting up Carnera's famous defeat at the hands of Baer According to his own account, Madden committed his first crime at age fourteen, clubbing a man and stealing $500. He rose to lead the areas most violent gang, the Gophers. In 1911, Madden married and briefly lived with Dorothy Rogers, with whom he had a daughter named Margaret, his only known child. A professional killer and gunman, he was wounded many times. In 1915, he was sentenced to Sing-Sing Prison in Ossining, New York, for manslaughter, and he was paroled in early 1923. Point being to equate Madden with boxing figures like Kearns is absurd.
McVey Well, this sort of writing is exactly what I'm talking about. "suspected in the deaths of five rival gang members" And the then Prince of Wales has been suspected by some writers of being Jack the Ripper. Suspicion isn't proof or even evidence. "He shot and killed a store clerk named William Henshaw." "Henshaw . . . identified Madden as his assailant." What is the source for this? A deathbed identification to the police would be strong evidence. Hard to buy Madden wouldn't have been brought to trial. As written here, without more detail, this just doesn't smell right. "Though the attack had numerous witnesses, the case had to be dismissed after no corroborating witnesses came forward." So there were a lot of witnesses and apparently none of them identified Madden. That is evidence of innocence rather than proof of guilt. "Madden arranged fixed fights" Which ones and when? Like all the other charges here, no proof or even evidence is offered. In fairness, Madden's image is worse than that of Kearns, but not that of King, and Don King was much more important in boxing for a much longer period than Madden. *my take, sure Madden was a shady character, but was he more crooked than a lot of Wall Street bankers or supposedly respectable businessmen over the years? Joseph P. Kennedy sold Scotch to Al Capone in Canada. Now it was Capone who shipped it down into the US, so Kennedy's hands were legally clean. But he knew where the booze was going and whom he was dealing with, or should have.
You are splitting hairs. Were King or Kearns ever named Public Enemy Number One by the Police? Simply put there is no valid comparison imo.
"Were King or Kearns ever named Public Enemy Number one by the Police?" Neither was Madden. The public enemy list was from the FBI, which was not even founded until 1924, after Madden was released from prison. The public enemy list was a publicity gimmick by J. Edgar Hoover from the 1930's, and consisted of criminals wanted by the FBI. Madden at this point was a very high profile nightclub owner. Everyone, including the FBI, knew exactly where he was. He lived out his life peacefully in New York and later Hot Springs, Arkansas, and had no run-ins with the law at all after a brief and controversial parole violation affair in 1932 and 1933. The actual public enemy number one types were outlaws like John Dillinger, Baby-Face Nelson, Pretty-Boy Floyd, and the like, most of whom came to bad ends in shootouts with the FBI. In fairness, Madden was a shady guy who was almost certainly involved in bootlegging and gambling--activities both illegal and widely popular with the American public. As for all the murder claims, there doesn't seem to be a hell of a lot of evidence, and almost none after 1914. I don't buy into tabloid sensationalism. Madden was actually charged with and convicted of one homicide. King was involved in two--one justifiable homicide, the other some sort of manslaughter rap like Madden's for which King was also convicted. I don't see the two of them world's apart like you do.
No doubt King is a ****,I was more referring to Kearns and others of that ilk. As far as I know Madden was the only boxing manager who was sentenced to 22 years in Sing Sing, was it a miscarriage of justice? Was he another Dreyfus? Here is an ****ogy ,Fritzie Zivic is widely considered one of the dirtiest fighters that ever lived despite the fact he was never DSQ'd in a total of 232 fights.:think
"was it a miscarriage of justice? Was he another Dreyfus?" Not a Dreyfus, but this is the Encyclopedia of Organized Crime on Owney's homicide-- "One night Patsy Doyle was found alone in a saloon by a thug named Willie "the Sailor" Matt. After they were seated at a table, Patsy Doyle was called up to the bar by two men who, after making sure he was Doyle, shot him six times. Mortally wounded, Doyle staggered into the street and fell dead in the snow. Owney Madden and two of his henchmen were arrested for the Doyle shooting. Madden was only convicted of manslaughter, since he had merely set up the killing, not participated in it. Later most of the witnesses against Madden said they had been lying and that Madden didn't have anything to do with the Doyle killing. Nobody listened to them, and in 1915 Madden was sentenced to ten to twenty years in Sing Sing." I don't know what conclusion to draw here, but some facts are clear. Owney didn't shoot the guy. Two other fellows did. Some witnesses fingered Owney as behind the hit, possibly in a plea deal, but later recanted. Owney served eight years of a ten to twenty sentence for manslaughter. What happened when he came out though is interesting and reflects back on these years and this conviction. That is for the next post.