Why can GSP so easily takedown these great wrestlers?

It probably helps that Matt Hughes switched to south paw for some dumb **** reason. I don't understand what he was trying to accomplish there. He couldn't jab or punch for **** in that stance to set up a takedown, and when he did make some feeble attempts at shots he was way too shallow and it was obvious the south paw stance was ****ing up his game. I don't think Pat Miletich would have set him up with a game plan like that, so leaving that camp hurt him in this fight I believe.

 

Yes... I have seen wrestling matches...

My point is, what defines ONE of them as wrestling, while the other one isn't. The truth is, I don't care that the points systems are different or that they do not look alike, that doesn't make one wrestling and the other not.

Wrestling is a genre of combat competition. The long jump and the marathon are both track and field competitions, and they dont look anything alike.

I mean, if submission grappling isn't wrestling, what is? The very first definition of wrestle in the American Heritage dictionary is

1. To contend by grappling and attempting to throw or immobilize one's opponent, especially under contest rules.

Submission grappling clearly fits those guidelines. No, it is not the same as competition wrestling in college or high school or even the olympics, but that doesn't make it not wrestling. I mean, they WRESTLE to try to submit each other. What else would you say they are doing, if not wrestling? Grappling? It is a common synonym...

 

Wait, Widdows right, Submission Grappling is like ADCC, its very much like what you see in MMA, never give your back, keep your opponent in your guard, you win by armbar, leg lock, choke hold.......you know, all the submissions you see in MMA.

Traditional wrestling is all about pinning your opponents shoulders on the mat. You never give your front in traditional wrestling as that means you'll be pinned.



On a different note I just realized for the first time ever that freestyle wrestling was co-developed in Britain as catch as can wrestling!
Wow.....I never knew that. Such a shame that such a fundamental martial art has been completley forgotten in the British physche and abandonded, I couldn't try wrestling even if I wanted to. I don't think their is a single club or gym for miles and its certainly not taught in schools.

I'd actually like to give it a try, sad that its essentially been forgotten about in this country and neglected as a sport.

 

So, its not the same as traditional wrestling...

Its still wrestling. Its two guys, competing, without strikes, by trying to dominate the other. Its wrestling. If FILA says it is wrestling for gods sakes, just because others dont see it as "the same as the wrestling that I know of" doesnt mean anything.

 

A point worth remembering, is Hughes was never a great wrestler in the first place - he took his skills to mma better than most, but he's nothing like the caliber of the guys who make it Olympic or World level.

And as for the experience ... GSP I believe has been wrestling since just after he made his mma debut as basically a karate fighter (when he was about 17 I think?) - so he has 10 years or so wrestling experience, if he had another 10 or 20 hes not going to learn a greaet deal more.

Aaaand GSP is just about 10x the athlete Hughes is, GSP is a freak.

ps i think GSP is a much bigger guy than Kos. Even though his stats say 5'10" 170 he's always looked like a monster.

 

Hmm.......I guess when someone normally talks about 'wrestling' in an MMA sense they are refering to the traditional styles of wrestling. I think thats what Widdow was talking about as well.

As for submission wrestling who knows, I don't even know if Kos has good submissions.

 

:huh You don't seem to be grasping the point.

Kos is great at Folkstyle wrestling. That is his backround. When we were discussing Kos being a better wrestler, and how he would beat GSP in a wrestling match... it is obviously with the understanding that I was talking about Wrestling, which Kos is great at. Not submission grappling, not MMA, or any other variation that completely changes the entire scope of the competition.

Once you completely change the rule set, the point systems, and ways of winning... it is obviously no longer the same sport.

In Folkstyle wrestling, here are the point systems...

1. Takedown- 2 pts.
2. Escape- 1 pt.
3. Reversal- 2 pts.
4. Near fall (backs).. 2-4 seconds- 2 pts.
5. Near fall - 5 or more seconds - 3 pts.

There are also penalties for starting out in the wrong position on top or bottom, moving before ref blows the whistle when on top or bottom, or stalling, in which one of the wrestlers isn't trying to advance position, or actively trying to score.

To win you can, win by..

Dec. - Win by 1-7 pts.
Major Dec.- Win by 8-14 pts.
Technical Fall - They will stop the match if you are winning by 15+ pts.
Fall - (pin) Pinning both of your opponents shoulders to the mat, while he is on his back.

In college they also give riding time, in which you are awarded for controlling from the top position for an extended period of time.




See how huge the difference is yet?

 

I agree with Widdow Makers general point; pure wrestling and mma are poles apart. For example I can't believe how useless Mike van Arsdale was in mma.

ANd i take Kos V GSP in a wrestling match, definitely on a p4p basis - ST Pierre's strength might be an equalizer

 

Wow. I appreciate that, but seriously, I am not THAT much of a novice. I do fully understand the difference. In HS I wrestled for about a month before I realized I sucked at it. I watch the olympics every now and again.

Anyways, you from the begining interpreted the word wrestling as if it applied to a single solitary sport, freestyle or collegiate or whatever wrestling. I interpreted it as, which is the better wrestler.

I understand they are VERY different. I mean, Carl Lewis is NOT necessarily the better runner than Michael Johnson because he has a faster 50 yard dash. There are other forms of wrestling besides the one that KOS was a beast at.

Wrestling encompasses MORE THAN ONE form, and just because some forms are very different, doesnt make one less wrestling than the other. It just makes one less FOLKSTYLE wrestling than the others.

I mean, seriously, if you don't call sub grappling wrestling, what do you call it?

 

You call it submission grappling. You can call it "submission wrestling" if you want, but it is not a true form of wrestling. It is an altered sport, with a completely different outline than traditional wrestling.

When you say "who is the better wrestler"? Then you must think of it within the lines of an actual wrestling match. If not, then you should be asking "who is the better submission grappler"? Because it is an entirely different sport. We are talking about a difference where guy "A" may completely dominate and embarrass guy "B"... however Guy "B" may completely dominate and embarrass guy "A" in Submission grappling. Why would be bother acting as if they are the same, because neither use striking?

If you are talking about wrestling, then you should be talking about one of the big three.... Folkstyle, Freestyle, or Greco-Roman. If you aren't then you are just splitting hairs, and trying to make a point out of nothing. The ultimate goal in wrestling is to put your opponent on their back. You are talking about a sport where being on your back is a normal place to work from, and you don't get penalized for being there. They are NOTHING alike. You may as well be talking about football, and baseball, since they both play with a ball of some sort.

 

That might be the dumbest thing I've read in a while.

 

He switched to southpaw because thats how he wrestled, most right handed guys wrestle right foot forward most of the time.

Hughes had the same guys training him as he always did, including Horn who wasn't there for his last few fights with Pat.

 

Yup. Better than Hughes as well.

 

Bull****.

 

MMA wrestling and freestyle or Greco roman are different remember Tito outwrestling Matyushenko (who was a great amateur I believe he beat Angle). I mean Mir subbed Traven (who has won everything at bjj can pretty much) MMA and the individual martial art are different Hendo gets takedown a fair amount but you think any of those guys could beat him in a wrestling match?