Why can GSP so easily takedown these great wrestlers?

Yeah, Hughes and St. Pierre were in a tie up position, neutral, and Georges easily popped down, touched Matts leg, drove and put him on his ass :deal

 

The truth is, in Wrestling AND MMA raw talent is better then experience....and GSP is proving it everytime he fights.

 

Admittedly, the a clinch is very very different in wrestling where you dont have to worry about knees.

I'm on your side, but it is different.

 

It's not the same though.

 

Why though? And how are you so sure GSP wouldn't get the best of him?

I just have a hard time understanding this. You learn the technique. You drill the technique over and over and over. You use the technique in practice and in actually matches over and over. This is what experience gets you. But eventually you peak and from then on, you can't do that technique any better then you can. Why do you all think that because Hughes and Kos have been drilling in wrestling and practicing wrestling for their entire lives, it automatically means they are better than GSP atsch He may have learned takedowns and takedowns, drilled the **** out of them, given his athleticism....it probably was already natural to him. My point is this. If GSP is faster, stronger, quicker, more responsive then those two....then why wouldn't he be able to do every single 'wrestling move' as good or better then them?

 

I never said he couldn't. I said that practicing take downs on the mat wrestling will not fully translate to MMA because a duckunder is not shooting under a jab.

 

I have been gone for a while, but I will answer this yet again. First of all... GSP taking Kos down means nothing more than GSP being a great athlete, a decent wrestler, and being GREAT at implimenting his strategy. The first takedown was on a low kick attempt by KOS... do you think that KOS would be that out of position in a wrestling match? Never... he would be crouched, low... and GSP would never get that sort of angle or shot at his legs. The difference is so huge that you can't even compare. It is about as silly as saying that if a defensive back tackled Kurt Angle in the open field, than he could probably beat him at wrestling. Since, he took Kurt down. Never mind the fact that Kurt was running with a ball, and doesn't have the liberty of dropping his level to avoid the takedown. GSP would NOT stand a chance in a real wrestling match, sorry. Also, you are forgetting that when KOS was fresh, he took GSP down rather easily, WHILE GSP was defending the takedown.

Also, controlling KOS on the ground means nothing. I am sure that most decent MMA fighters with a good ground game could keep KOS down once he was on his back. That is the difference in wrestling... NONE of them could keep him down if it was a wrestling match. In wrestling, they could never get him on his back. In MMA, KOS can't roll over to his base, unless he wants choked out. So, it wouldn't be too difficult to keep KOS on his back, which would clearly be the weakest part of his fight game, as wrestlers NEVER work off of their backs. The entire point of wrestling is to NOT be put on your back. Which is why you see a good bit of wrestlers get choked out with the rear naked early in their MMA careers, because they are so used to the instinct of roll to your base and get up.

There is NO WAY IN HELL , that some guy with zero wrestling competition experience can go in and compete with an undefeated National Champion.

Now... if you want to speculate on what "could" have been if GSP had wrestling since he was a kid... well then go ahead. That is a different story, and a bit pointless. As I said before, I am a GSP fan, and not a KOS fan... and I would happy as hell to see GSP take him down and control him there... I knew it was his best strategy. However, it would be a bit naive to believe that has anything to do with GSP being able to beat KOS in a real wrestling match.

I am not just saying that GSP couldn't beat KOS in wrestling, I am saying that it wouldn't even be competitive. However GSP is clearly a much better MMA fighter, and that is all that really matters as far as their MMA careers go, right?

 

Answer the above then?

I completely see what your saying and see what your argument is, but you aren't really providing any reason or logic other than....."believe me" :deal Go by what we saw and what we heard from the Olympic wrestlers GSP trains with. They said he could and should try out for the olympics :think He's that competitive with them. Matt Hughes has a very polished wrestling background....not like Kos, but still. He even said, although at the same weight, GSP is just too strong and athletic to compete with. What though? this won't be true on a wrestling mat. GSP didn't have to set Matt up for the takedowns, he was owning him from neutral clinch positions :deal

 

gsp hes the right amount of fast tiwitch muscle to be great plus great training and great work ethic making him a great wrestler that could compete on the olympic level.

 

It is too hard to get you guys to understand the difference between MMA wrestling. GSP isn't any faster, or more responsive than KOS. He isn't more athletic either. KOS is an amazing athlete. GSP is simply a better MMA fighter. A better all around fighter who KOS has to respect so much on his feet, that it gives GSP a huge advantage in takedowns. Also, it gives GSP an advantage in stopping takedowns as well, as KOS will always have to worry about putting himself in a bad position for a choke, a bad position in the landing, or being struck, or open for a submission during the takedown attempt. In a wrestling match, there would be nothing for KOS to worry about, other than GSP defending his takedowns, or him defending GSP.s.

Also, you are feeding to much into training partners. That is called publicity, if GSP really tied out for the Olympics, he would be in for a serious reality check. You don't understand that the athletes wrestling at that level are not only just as good, if not better of an athlete than GSP, but they have also being doing nothing by practicing, drilling, and competing in wrestling their entire lives. It takes YEARS AND YEARS of wrestling to gain this certain sense of grappling that simply cannot be explained. As I said before, it becomes so natural that you can do it with your eyes closed. You can just feel the different pressure, angles, leverage, momentum, body weight, ect... and you react without even thinking.

We had a kid come out for wrestling who was our star running back, went as far as being drafted by the New York Jets... hell of an athlete, 4.3 40 yard dash in a sleet storm..... and he thought that he would be able to come in and dominant the wrestlers with his athletic abilities. He outweighed me by about 30 pounds.... could lift more than me, ect... obviously ran faster than I did, and he also wrestled as a little kid, so it wasn't completely new to him. I honestly, could throw him around like a 100 pound girl. Being a great raw athlete doesn't mean anything if you are going up against someone who 10 times the technique and experience. I wrestled at 152, and could toss our 6'5" 265 pound heavyweight on his head repeatedly. Using someone elses strength against them is what a top wrestlers does well. He pushes, you pull, and you use his momentum to throw himself down.

I am just trying to explain that just because GSP is a great athlete, doesn't mean that he can just jump in any sport and dominate guys who are at the top of the game. Especially when he doesn't train that sport 100% of the time. Wrestling is just one part of GSP's complex, and well rounded training routine.

I don't think that you guys will ever really be able to understand exactly what I am saying. You are looking too deep into takedowns from an MMA fight, that has nothing to do with wrestling in a wrestling match. Also, you put too much stock into your "GSP is such a great athlete, bigger, faster, stronger" theories.

I mean, Matt Serra totally thrashed, and dumped St. Pierre on his ass and out when they fought. Does that make Serra a better striker than GSP? Hell no. Matt Serra isn't even a better fighter than GSP, but he sure kicked his ass. It's a fight, and **** happens. Might happen again, that is the way it works in MMA.

 

Also, about Hughes... he isn't a top wrestler anyways... and isn't even close to being the top wrestling in his own weight class in UFC. Plus, he is old, slow, and his standup game is awful. Hughes is a good wrestler, but not great.

 

I agree with you on this one. I really think that some people are predisposed to learning a skill faster than another person. Take a look at BJ Penn. He took Jujitsu for 3 years and was given a blackbelt..won the Mundials as well. Some even say that he left Ralph because the Gracies didnt want to give him the belt too soon even though he deserved it. Im sure hed crushed Royce staright up even though Royce was fond of saying hes been doing BJJ since he was an embryo.

Had it ever occured to people that some that the best person in a certain sport isnt even playing because he/she is either doing something else or was not given an opportunity??? Take a look aBasketball..I see some guys in the Playgrounds that was giving Marbury a hell of a time..and hes not even a pro..most likely dealing drugs. Imagine this guy with all the advantages of a trainer, facilities, Money..hed be unbelievable.

This occurs in the office too..an older guy or a superior doesnt know everything..I had an officemate from Cornell..in his 2nd day figured out a way to do things we've been brainstorming for weeks and couldnt get
done.

Just because youve been doing something since you were 6 months old and have won some trophies doesnt mean that no one who started later than you cant be better. Thats silly

My two cents

 

There is a big difference between "starting later", and never competing in a single wrestling match in your life. We are talking about a man who has wrestled since he was a child, went all the way to College, division I, undefeated National Champion... against a guy who HAS NEVER WRESTLED A SINGLE MATCH.

Had GSP started when he was 15 instead of 5-6, competed and became better in the sport, then this would make sense. However, he STILL DOESN'T COMPETE IN WRESTLING! He trains in wrestling as part of his MMA training. That is not going to put you on the level of an undefeated national Champion.... sorry. It works great for him when using it as part of his MMA gameplan, but that is a huge stretch from an actual wrestling match.

 

most of what you say is bias being a "wrestler' yourself...you can use the MMA wrestling against a wrestling match in some instances but when a guy like Kos comes in tries to takedown GSP get's stuffed then throws Kos on his back...THAT DOES MEAN SOMETHING!!! you can deny it all you want, have you ever seen kos,Hughes,Sherk or even Penn get taken down the way GSP took them them down...and defend takedowns the way he does, that means something....those attributes can easily be translated into a wresting match. They were commenting on how GSP was taking Rashad Evans down in his training camp but Rashad couldn't take GSP down...these things mean something whether you want to admit it or not....and saying GSP is not more athletic then Kos tells me everything I need to know. You think if GSP puts the head gear on and he'll be lost and Kos would have his way with him? give your head a shake...at worst it would be a close match.

 

KOS's takedown was stuffed, after he had been underneathe GSP for a couple rounds, and he was spent, and dominated. Earlier in the fight, KOS took GSP down without any trouble. Also, as I said before "training stories", and takedowns in MMA don't mean anything other than that other person is a better MMA fighter. We have already established that GSP is a good wrestler, as he has been training at a high level for years. However, as I said before... he has never competed in an actual wrestling match. There is a HUGE difference between training, and getting some takedowns in MMA, and wrestling a top tier wrestler, under wrestling rules, in an actual wrestling match. In MMA you almost have to give up a takedown in certain situations, where in a wrestling match you can defend in different ways. However, you can use certain wrestling defensive, or offensive techniques in an MMA match, because it puts you in too much of a dangerous position.

So... Matt Serra is a better striker than GSP? Serra would win a kickboxing match, right? We saw what happened when they fought. You don't think that maybe that had something to do with GSP giving too much respect to Serra's ground game, and getting caught on his feet? I think that maybe that will give you the picture here. It works the other way around too. If you have to show a guy serious respect to his stand up, it is going to leave you vulnerable to being taken down, no matter how good you are. If you are out of position, you go down.

Also, as I stated before, Rashad Evans was 48-34 as a college wrestler. That isn't exactly the mark of amazing wrestler. Whether or not the "training" stories are even true are one thing, but even if they are true, I wouldn't be suprised considering that Evans is just an average wrestler, who gets hyped up as being better than he is.