Why come Liston didn't get a title shot against Frazier in the late 60s

If he beat Martin he probably would have

 

No chance. Not just Frazier, nobody wanted a piece of Liston following the second Ali bout. The reason was simple - he had lost all respect & prestige in the aftermath, so beating him wasn’t a scalp for any youngsters looking for a name, yet he was still damn dangerous with that two-fisted power.

Liston was fairly high risk, absolutely zero reward.

 

To be quite fair, Sonny Liston's style would have been all wrong for Joe Frazier. Frazier had a very shrewd manager and trainer in his camp. It was Yank Durham, Joe's manager, who declined for undefeated Frazier to get a shot at champion Muhammad Ali following the title bout in Madison Square Garden after Ali dispatched Zora Folley, KO 7, when Joe's name was mentioned by commentator Don Dunphy. Yank felt that Joe was too green to go against a peak Ali in 1967. In protest of Durham's decision, Frazier refused to enter the WBA Tournament of 1967 after Ali was stripped of his title and boxing license because of his legal troubles relating to the selective service. Durham did not want Joe in the ring with Liston either, it could have harmed the gate for the upcoming title unification against WBA Champion Jimmy Ellis, scheduled for Feb 16 1970 in Madison Square Garden and a potential title bout against challenger Ali. It might have been a sigh of relief when Leotis Martin kayoed Liston in Dec 1969.

 

By early ’68, the tide had turned, & Frazier was ready to overcome his style disadvantage vs an ageing & sluggish Liston, IMO. It was still all risk, no reward though. I agree Frazier was too green for Ali in ’67. Had Ali not been stripped the bout would have come about naturally around 1969.

 

For months Liston was supposedly on the point of signing to fight Jimmy Ellis for the WBA title, but then Ellis signed to fight Henry Cooper instead. Angelo Dundee claimed they couldn't get a promoter interested.

https://ibb.co/Ry3Wc1M

 

Thanks for posting, I learned something new.

 

Agreed. Had Yank Durham had allowed Joe Frazier to fight champion Muhammad Ali in 1967, Ali would have clearly outpointed Frazier to retain. But in my opinion, after Frazier was outpointed by Ali in 1967, Joe would have improved, gained the experience needed to beat Ali, and like you pointed out, Frazier could have possibly fought a return with Ali possibly in 1969, in which I believe Frazier's chances of wresting the title from Ali are huge, Frazier would have become more hungry and seasoned as a pro.

 

Leotis Martin v Liston was a title eliminator I think because it was the first NABF title fight(in early years the NABF was a "subsidary title" of sorts like the "regular belt"). But Liston lost this fight and Leotis had to retire. So that was that.

 

Gotta love all the Liston misinformation here. Liston wanted nothing to do with anyone who was worth a **** at this point. Thats why he didnt fight anyone of note. He was offered his highest post Ali purse to fight Ellis for the title and turned it down. Period. The idea that Ellis passed Liston over for Cooper is bull****. The Dundees actively pursued Liston and he turned down the fight. Just like he turned down three or four separate offers to fight Quarry only to fight Willis Earls for pennies compared to his Quarry offer and just like he turned down everyone else who was remotely dangerous at the time. Liston’s boat had sailed and was treading water. Its no coincidence that the highest rated fighter he fought post Ali, Martin (who was also the most vulnerable top ten fighter at the time) knocked him out cold.

 

100% spot-on!! Any up and comer in the late 1960's had nothing to gain and everything to lose fighting Liston at that time.

 

Yeah, no way Durham would have allowed Frazier to face Liston.

I've also seen that Yancey didn't think Joe was ready for Ali in '67, but do you have a source on it because I can't remember when I heard/read it?

 

No later than '68, I reckon.

Joe was was nr. 1 already in '67 and Ali kept a busy schedule, so come '68 there would have been no one left but Joe.

 

Sonny was box office poison at this point. Angelo Dundee’s mention of not being able to find a promoter rings true — Liston was regarded as (a) a quitter (b) a shady mob-connected character who many felt threw the Lewiston fight (c) past it.

Selling tickets to him in a world title fight in the U.S. would have been impossible, and there wouldn’t have been enough interest nor a promoter who wanted anything to do with ponying up title fight money to showcase him for a belt in Europe or elsewhere outside the U.S.

It wasn’t in the cards and a lot of that was Sonny’s doing.

 

This is very surprising to me, and I've done a fair amount of obsessive searching on the subject of Liston. I have a question: Where and to whom does Angelo Dundee say that his people made offers that Liston turned down? I believe you that he said it. I'd just like you to cite a source.