Why come Liston didn't get a title shot against Frazier in the late 60s

I don’t know all the details but if it made Joe Frazier a lot of money it would’ve happened. You’ll have to assume the business end didn’t make the fight. Joe Frazier would’ve hurt Sonny Liston at that point I won’t comment on a bout where both men are at there bests as it’d require more thought but to quote “Smokin” “Ain’t nothing for me to do but just walk straight” and had Sonny Liston been between him and the title that’s all there is to it.

 

This is the interview where Dundee says the Ellis-Liston fight didn't happen because they couldn't get a promoter interested. He does mention that Liston refused to box in South Florida where Chris Dundee could have promoted it, because he believed he was still owed money from the first Ali fight back in 64. But it's not like that was the only place the fight could have been held.

https://ibb.co/wCN9CXQ

At this point Liston wasn't licensed to box in New York, which would have closed off another obvious potential venue.

 

As well as even an old Liston'jab being a potential problem for Frazier given his style, Cloverlay were vehemently opposed to Frazier being associated with Liston and his reputation in any way.

 

Nice find. Attn: Klompton2

 

You know, Jerry Quarry vs Sonny Liston would have been a really good fight even though Liston was at the near end of his career. Liston vs Jimmy Ellis would have been an interesting bout.

 

As I posted on several occasions, Joe Frazier's manager Yank Durham was very shrewd, it also didn't hurt Frazier that he had the legendary Eddie Futch in his corner.

 

Great material.

 

Not really, Muhammad Ali was stripped of his title on April 28 1967 by the WBA, also his boxing license was revoked, it was like this, if New York suspends your boxing license, you basically cannot get a bout anywhere. On the above date, Ali was arrested by the FBI and fingerprinted for refusing to take the military oath , a federal offense back then. Ali posted bond. On June 20 1967 Ali was convicted of Draft Evasion, sentenced to 5 years in prison, plus a $10,000.00 fine, Ali's attorney's then filed an appeal. In Ali's absence, Jimmy Ellis won the WBA Tournament defeating Leotis Martin, Oscar Bonavena, and Jerry Quarry to win the WBA Title, meanwhile Joe Frazier stopped Buster Mathis on March 4 1968 to become champion in five states. Frazier and Ellis met on Feb 16 1970 in Madison Square Garden to consolidate the World Heavyweight Title, Frazier stopped Ellis TKO 5. When Ali met Joe Frazier on March 8 1971, although both were undefeated, Frazier entered as the champion and Ali as the challenger even though some organizations continued to recognize Ali as champion during his exile which ran from March 22 1967 until he returned on Oct 26 1970.

 

Liston would rather fight "bums" for $5,000 than risk getting KO'd for $50,000. This implies 1) that Liston was actually afraid of another man.
(Leave Ali out of this...Liston thought Ali was insane) and 2) That Sonny was very bad at math and 3) His mob pals didn't want to take a piece of a $50,000 purse.

Sure.

 

I think we would have seen Liston on the losing end against both Quarry and Ellis in 1968-69. He had reached his expiration date. I'm glad his career ended with the win over Chuck Wepner. I'm one who believes he died of natural causes (heart disease).

 

And that was one of the best punches Ive ever seen, the one that dropped Ellis for the second time in round four, As Angelo Dundee said he didnt know how Jimmy Ellis got up from that. That fight showed me Jimmy Ellis had the heart of a lion even in defeat, like Wilfredo Gomez's fight with Salvador Sanchez.

 

I remember that fight, Angelo Dundee had to rescue poor Ellis.

 

Oh yeah he did.

Id also like to add to Ellis-Frazier and Sanchez-Gomez, Rose-Olivares. I saw that recently on ESPN Classic and i have never seen anyone get beaten that bad, But Lionel Rose, knowing he had no chance in hell for a knock out victory and no chance in hell to beat Olivares on points in Second Mex..err, I mean, Los Angeles...(Inglewood actually but) kept coming back for more until it was finally stopped.

Olivares was the Joe Frazier of the Bantamweights.

And Lionel Rose's name sounds like two things to me: a toy train brand (Lionel, of course) or a brandy brand....lol

 

For years Ruben Olivares was the most dangerous puncher, I was surprised when Alexis Arguello kayoed Ruben in round 13 to win the WBA Featherweight Title on November 23 1974.

 

Mar 16, 1968
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Nov 13, 1968
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Dec 13, 1968
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Dec 15, 1968
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Mar 22, 1969
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Mar 27, 1969
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March 27, 1969
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May 20, 1969
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June 27, 1969
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Thats three separate offers to fight Quarry Liston turned down after talking tough about wanting to fight him. As stated above he turned down the offer to fight Ellis in Miami using the excuse that he was owed money from the first Ali-Liston fight. Thats a convenient excuse considering Bill McDonald, the financier of the first Ali-Liston fight had nothing to do with the promotion of Ellis-Liston and the money that Liston never received was held by the IRS, not the promoters, for back taxes Liston owed. No explanation why he turned down Mickey Davies, Aileen Eaton, and George Parnassus for a defense against Ellis... The fact of the matter is you can follow the trail of Liston talking tough and claiming he wanted a fight with this guy or that guy only to tuck tail and run whenever a serious offer was on the table and instead fight the least threatening opposition. And what about that opposition? Somebody above said "they werent really that bad" Really??

Gerhard Zech had lost two of his last three fights. One of those losses in his last three fights came against Dave Bailey who hadnt won a fight in three years and was coming off six straight losses half of which were KOs. Bailey knocked Zech out in two rounds.

Amos Johnson who was coming off a loss to Brian London. Johnson had one notable win to his name over Henry Cooper in which the press reports credited the loss to Coopers poor performance and not anything Johnson did.

Dave Bailey, who after the six straight losses and victory over Zech mentioned above went back on his losing streak, being stopped by Ivan Preburg and Buddy Turman (themselves both coming off of losses) before facing Liston. So going into the Liston fight Bailey's record in his last 11 fights over the course of about 4 years was 1-9-1 and six of those losses were stoppages.

Elmer Rush had won one of his last three fights. Two of those losses were to Liston's sparring partner Amos Lincoln. So Liston would have had good intelligence on him and it was clearly a low risk fight. Rush had wins over recognizable names like Amos Johnson, Bill McMurray, Billy Daniels etc but all of these guys (who never more than very fring clubfighters to begin with) were experiencing losing streaks when Rush fought them.

Bill McMurray was Liston's first opponent when Liston got his license back in the United States. McMurray had won just 2 of his previous 6 fights. His record stood at 26-18-2. One year earlier almost to the day McMurray had been knocked out COLD in one round by Floyd Patterson. Liston and McMurray shared three opponents. Liston had beaten all of them and McMurray had been knocked out by all of them. Not exactly a step up.

Billy Joiner had won just 1 one his last 6 fights. He was 9-3-3. His most recent fight was a draw against light heavyweight Chuck Leslie. Joiner was a smallish HW with no punch.

Henry Clark was the first semi respectable opponent Liston would face post Ali but I would argue he was about as perfect as you could get for a guy playing it safe wanting to break into the ratings. Clark was 15-3-2. Two of those early losses came at the very beginning of his career as well as one of the draws. The other loss was against Zora Folley who while past his prime was still several months away from challenging for the HW title against Ali. He had two other wins against Liston opponents: Bill McMurray and Eddie Machen. He barely beat McMurray in a razor thin decision that would have gone the other way if one round on one card had been different. Eddie Machen was completely shot to pieces when Clark beat him. True Clark was rated when Liston fought him but even that is somewhat odd. Clark somehow shot to #5 in the WBA ratings by beating #10 rated Leotis Martin in another super close fight in Clark's backyard just a couple of months before the Liston fight. What prompted Clark's stock to skyrocket like that is a mystery to me. He was essentially a west coast clubfighter who had never fought for anything more than California State Title and on that level he was a good fighter but to be ranked #5 in the world is frankly bizarre. Factor in that Clark couldnt punch his way out of a paper bag (he had just three knockouts against nobodies to his name) and was a runner and this doesnt look like a huge risk for Liston. Liston had talked up and down California about wanting to fight Quarry in the leadup to this fight and it was during the training for this fight that Liston was dropped by Mac Foster.

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Throughout the latter half of 1968 several promoters were trying to match Liston and Quarry and yet Liston is fighting:

Sonny Moore 20-30-2 who had won just three of his last eighteen fights. One of those three wins was against Willis Earls. Guess who Liston's next opponent was:

Willis Earls who was 4-6-1 and won just two his last six fights. All four of those losses in his last six fights had been stoppages. Some reports have Liston getting dropped by Earls.

Roger Rischer was next, all the while Liston was talking tough about Quarry to the press but turning down offers to fight him. Quarry's answer "he knows where to find me." Rischer was 29-11-2 and 3-3 in his last six contests. One of those had been a one round knockout loss to Brian London which prompted him to retire for two years. He was now on the comeback trail. Rischer had six fights against former Liston opponents, winning only two and those wins came against Bill McMurray. Again, not exactly a world beater.

Amos Lincoln was next for Liston. Lincoln's biggest claim to fame was being Liston's former sparring partner. However, going into the Liston fight Lincoln had won just one of his last five fights. Three of those losses were stoppages.

Having turned down all offers to fight Quarry Liston now went on to fight... dun dun dun! Billy Joiner!!! Yes, the same guy he had already stopped the year before. And WHAT, you may ask, had Joiner done to make him such an interesting matchup for Liston? NOTHING. Joiner hadnt had a fight since losing to Liston a year ago...

Having spurned Bill Millers offer to fight Quarry on national television Liston instead chose George Scrap Iron Johnson who was 17-17-3 and had been knocked out by Quarry in three rounds three years earlier. While its true that Johnson had at least won his last six fights, something most of Liston's previous opponents couldnt claim, when your best win in that bunch is over light heavyweight clown fighter Ray Windmille White its kind of damning him with feint praise...

So surely Liston fights someone awesome having now turned down fights with Jimmy Ellis for the title, Jerry Quarry, Mac Foster and others? Nope. He fights:

SONNY MOORE! You know, the guy he had already knocked out in three rounds a year earlier... And what had Moore done to get another fight with Liston since the last time the fought? Well he'd fought one time in the previous year and got knocked out in four rounds pretty brutally by a completely shot Zora Folley.

Finally Liston fights his former sparring partner, the highest rated fighter he fought during his comeback (and frankly Im not sure how Martin got his high rating) and was knocked out.

If you can look at that list and tell me honestly Liston was trying to get big fights and trying to fight good fighters I have stock in Truth Social Id love to sell you...