Why come Liston didn't get a title shot against Frazier in the late 60s

Helluva plan if he was turning down $50K to get beat by Ellis or Frazier in order to make $5K to get KO’d by Leo Martin.

 

Oh you think he planned to get KOd by Martin... Makes sense.

I guess people have a hard time with the idea that if you can get paid knocking out bums like Willis Earls and Sonny Moore all day every day its an easier payday than getting your ass kicked by an actual ranked fighter and losing more drawing power. Not sure whats so hard about that to understand but hey, some people just want to believe that Liston was 90 years old when he got beat by Ali, 147 when he lost to Martin and somehow in between he still had everybody running from him...

 

Exactly. We're dealing with some pathological hate in here.

 

Hate? I dont hate Liston at all. I just see him as a human being unlike some of the people on here who are never short of excuses for him.

 

Ok, fine. Can I ask you to answer a question; you're under no obligation of course.

How would Liston's mob pals react if they knew he passed up a $50,000 payday for a $5,000 fight?

 

Which mob pals? Do you have specific details that Liston was still owned by the mob in 1968/1969 and not being managed by Dick Saddler? I dont trade in rumors, innuendo, and supposition. Ive never seen anything convincing that the mob was in control of Listons career at this point in his life. Were these the same mobsters that supposedly threw away the HW title by fixing his two fights with Ali for their fighter to lose and become drastically less valuable four years after their control of the sport was broken? The same mob who supposedly got mad at Sonny for not throwing a fight to Chuck Wepner, a supposed fix that never made any sense in any universe. The same mob friends that supposedly murdered Liston. Come on. Liston was a mob fighter when he was hot but by the time he lost the title their entire involvement in him had become a money losing cluster ****. If the mob had anything to do with Liston in the late 60s and thats a very big if it was nothing more than to collect whatever small percentage was left over after his purses has been carved up by trainers, managers, fees, taxes etc. I knew the promoter of the his fight with Amos Lincoln and I know the mob wasnt involved in that fight. In fact Somny was half assed trying to manage himself at that point and just prior to fight time he refused to leave his dressing room. The promoter, who was in Philadelphia working the Joe Frazier-Oscar Bonavena fight (it was a closed circuit double header) called Liston to ask why he wouldnt fight. Liston demanded another two thousand dollars or he wouldnt leave his dressing room. The promoter who had already been good to Liston got pissed and told Liston that if he didnt fight for the agreed upon price hed never get another fight again. Liston demurred and went on with the fight. Does that sound like a guy who had the mob backing him and moving him along or does it sound like a had been with a name floundering.

 

I know Sonny was no genius, but surely he knew the risks of getting knocked out every time he stepped into the ring, and Martin and Clark were clearly steps up from his earlier ‘comeback’ fights. Even you don’t dispute that.

So he was stepping up in competition, and unless he was delusional he had to know that in doing so he was taking bigger risks than some of the earlier 1966-67 set-up type fights against Dusty Trunks and Willie Fall.

To what end? How exactly is Sonny Liston a draw at this point without fighting bigger names? Was he packing out houses in major arenas? No, of course not. He was fighting in Sam Houston Coliseum (a minor league hockey arena) instead of the Astrodome in Houston. So what does his ‘drawing power’ have to do with anything?

So what I said stands: If Sonny’s chose to get knocked out for $5k (or risk it) rather than $50k … helluva plan.

 

So you cant answer my question. You just want to throw up smoke and pretend Liston was really actively seeking big fights when the actual facts dispute this and trying to suppose that his imaginary mob handlers would have wanted bigger fights. The fact is that Liston was making good money, albeit smaller purses to fight guys that werent threatening. The fact that he got brutally KOd by a former sparring partner who was really no more than a fringe contender is more evidence of how far he had fallen than the actual risks he had taken and Ive laid out why. Again, I dont consider Martin and Clark huge steps up for the reasons I outlined. Both were fringe guys. Clark couldnt punch worth a **** and was really nothing more than a clubfighter. Martin might have been slightly more dangerous (although he had lost to Clark) but he was a former sparring partner and a known quantity to Liston. Furthermore, right here you can see that in a two fight deal Liston was given his choice of opponents to make damn good purses for such a low risk (which was duly noted here) and he chose no one worth a ****. Period.

[url]https://flic.kr/p/2pKQsXS[/url]

So yes, it made far more sense to keep fighting bums and have a good chance of winning than to take a bigger payday and lose potential marketability in addition to getting an ass kicking never mind having to actually train hard for such a match if he really hoped to win.

These are stills from the tape of that card that I got directly from the promoter where Liston fought his former sparring partner.

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[url]https://flic.kr/p/2pKRqXV[/url]
[url]https://flic.kr/p/2pKRqYm[/url]

When they interviewed Lincoln afterward he was so punch drunk you could hardly understand what he was saying. Liston talked about how he wanted Ellis next and then turned down all offers to fight Ellis. Immediately after this fight he flew back to Las Vegas to fight on an exhibition card against Chester Walton alongside Jerry Quarry who fought Gary Bates, Eddie Butler, and Mike Quarry. During the telecast Bill Miller discussed trying to arrange a bout with Quarry and Liston and how several other promoters were competing for the fight. These are stills from that card:

[url]https://flic.kr/p/2pKS7mF[/url]
[url]https://flic.kr/p/2pKQhRE[/url]
[url]https://flic.kr/p/2pKRqVL[/url]
[url]https://flic.kr/p/2pKS7mR[/url]

Liston turned down every single offer throughout 1968 and 1969 to face Quarry. Every single offer was bigger than what he had gotten for any fight post Ali and at least two of the offers would have been nationally televised.


The facts, and the simple math dont lie. Sonny wasnt interested in taking risks when he could make a good living beating up bums. A certain segment of society will always pay to see a guy like Liston, Foreman, or Tyson knock out some hapless human punching bag it just so happens that theyll pay more if they are lead to believe the guy is somehow on the march to a title.

 

Everything you posted showed that yes, Liston was a mob controlled boxer, as you say, when he was hot. I know a little about mob behavior.....they never entirely leave you alone once you're in the club. And if....IF....they heard he was turning away $45,000 per fight that surely is enough to pique their interest in him again.

All I'm saying it is a possibility and,if so, it makes the "fighting bums for $5,000" storyline suspect.

 

Sure buddy. It makes more sense to imagine the mob was pulling his strings which you have no proof of rather than believe the actual facts as they were covered that Liston turned those fights down. Whatever it takes to believe what you want.

 

Thank you.

 

Its funny to me. When I posted my initial post here to refute the idea that Liston was frozen out and everyone was running from him in his post Ali career there was a chorus of "proof" "proof" now with a plethora of proof weve entered the realm of conspiracy theories (which still dont explain why he was turning down the offers from guys like Ellis, Quarry, Foster etc. but like I said, its a lot easier for fanboys believe that the big bad bear couldnt possibly have been a normal human with the same normal human frailties and weaknesses we all have and so it must have been the mob... that... made him turn down those fights... so he could fight for the title... which he also turned down... to fight ham and eggers... not a very well thought out conspiracy but whatever. Like I said, create whatever myth you want that there is zero proof to support in order to believe that Liston, well past his prime and having lost conclusively at the championship level years earlier was feared by all and couldnt get close to a fight because he was so good and no promoter would work with him so he was forced to fight bums and ex sparring partners and turn down offers to fight anyone with a pulse.

 

After the second Ali fight, he was basically persona non grata.

He didn't hold a boxing license in most states, and Ring Magazine refused to rank him for that reason.

He planned his own comeback, which included fights in Sweden, in order to avoid the local legislature.

His plan sort of worked, until he ran into Leotis Martin.

As Klompton has suggested, Liston probably wasn't in a great place over this period.

 

I really enjoy this information, keep them coming, truthfully I am finding out info that I did not know. In truth I have learned quite a bit about Sonny Liston late in his career. Thanks for posting.

 

Thanks! Good stuff.