Why come Liston didn't get a title shot against Frazier in the late 60s

Man, you’re projecting your own personal investment on to me BIG TIME.

My ass ain’t burning nor am I butt hurt, what’s with all this ass/butt stuff? - you sound very much like the other dude with that baseless, pointless projection.

Btw, I noticed donut cushions are buy 1 get 1 free on Amazon atm, - you should get in on that action also.

My previous post and the quote provided (of your own good self) highlights the obvious, dual standards you apply in your treatments which leads you to contradict yourself.

No, you don’t get to dictate the terms for debate but, at any rate, I’ve made it as much about Ellis as you have chosen to do.

But of course, it doesn’t suit you if any reference to the behaviours and conduct of Ellis/Dundees don’t support your argument against Liston as it pertains to the question of him not wanting to face Jimmy.

You’re not trying to gather anything from
the repost - you’re blatantly ignoring your own, self conflicting, words and sentiments.

Do you really need help with this?

“I believe Dundee was partially full of **** here....”

So Dundee is only honest as and when it suits you and your given position? For one example, he knew how to beat Liston but wasn’t actually seeking a fight against Liston for Ellis.

“If anything they were using a supposed Liston fight....”

So, they were disingenuous in claiming to seek a fight with Liston with the backdrop and profiling of them also avoiding Frazier. Gotcha.

“I don’t know that Liston would have seriously entertained that fight..”

“Would have”? Reaffirming yourself there. Meaning, IF the fight had been seriously put to Liston - but per your own convenient perspective on this occasion, that fight wasn’t seriously put to him - it was “supposed” etc.

No wonder you’re trying to falsely and illogically frame Ellis’/Dundee’s own conduct as an irrelevant, taboo subject in this discussion.

Anyway, the quote is there for anyone else to read for themselves if they wish.

 

In April 1962, Williams stopped Terrell by KO 7.

 

Jimmy Ellis won the WBA Title with a majority decision win over Jerry Quarry on April 27 1968.

 

No amount of hand wringing on this is going to change the fact that Liston turned down the Ellis fight, three or four Quarry fights, a Mac Foster fight, and a Bob Cleroux fight. All while claiming nobody would fight him and call out those guys only to face weaker opposition. Thats what you refuse to acknowledge here. This is all well documented. If you find me an unreliable source then you can simply fall back on the sources Ive posted here from that time. Take anything Ive said out of the equation and the facts remain: Liston was being offered bigger fights against better fighters he just chose to decline them. Period, end of story.

 

Im not trying to prove anything. This entire discussion started with people saying that Liston couldnt get fights, nobody would fight him, and promoters werent making offers to him. I simply corrected that and pointed that Liston was indeed offered bigger fights against better opposition by multiple promoters he just CHOSE to take lesser fights.

As for "Leotis Who" being somebody because he was in the tournament. Lets not forget that he was only in the tournament because Joe Frazier and George Chuvalo opted out of the tournament and chose to fight each other instead. The newspapers at the time noted that he had never fought a ranked contender, never made more than $2,500 for a fight and was unknown outside of Philadelphia.

 

Klompton the legend, guys can't the truth that Listom turned down big fights to face some bums while claiming everyone's ducking him.

 

But, to be fair, Liston did face off against the awesome might of Billy Joiner. Who may not have been anything special, but he was good enough to beat Bob Cleroux.

 

Yeah but he lost against Foster and Bonavena tho.

 

There’s obviously no hand wringing.

You keep trying to inject the question of personal investment when there is none.

I’ve taken on and duly processed all information provided and addressed it.

What you’ve provided is food for thought - it isn’t necessarily written in stone, absolute fact and certainly, in and of itself, can be read as self contradicting.

Quite simply, it isn’t the be all, end all “evidence” you’re trying to play it off as. There are aspects open to interpretation.

To fit your own arguments, you’ve chosen to subjectively interpret info in order to both credit and discredit the same primary source - Dundee.

So what is it per your currently plied standard?

Is it that all that Dundee is alleged to have stated must be treated as fact, not open to the interpretations that you’ve clearly chosen exercise yourself?

Anyway, I can step back on this for a bit, happy to hear other opinions on the reliability and weighting of the info you have provided.

 

Why is a quality poster like yourself allowing yourself to play games with trolls ?

 

Cheers He. There is one that is an undoubted troll. I guess it’s a perverse indulgence to bat them down sometimes. Lol.

 

Been there for years and understand how it can be fun but I've lost interest (and free time) so I block them and forget they ever existed.. There are so many good posters and well intended people to enjoy while not expending valuable time bantering with trolls , psychotic egomaniacs or last word freaks with endless free time. (Typical keyboard trash) Same ones that may pop up following this .. whatever .. I'm sure when you're bored you'll do the same. Till then keep surgically exposing them as transparently as you've been doing !

 

Which looks good in hindsight only because Joiner beat Cleroux AFTER he fought Liston and AFTER Liston turned down the offer to face Cleroux. At the time Liston turned down the offer to fight Cleroux nobody in their right mind would have picked Joiner as the tougher opponent. And in fact Liston was roundly criticized for his poor performance in both Joiner fights as well.

 

Bob Cleroux hadn't faced a ranked opponent since he was easily beaten by Zora Folley in 1963. He hadn't beaten a ranked opponent since a split decision over George Chuvalo in 61. It's laughable that you're trying to pitch him as one of the "better fighters" Liston was supposedly too scared to face.

 

Im not, Im saying at the time he certainly wouldnt have been considered worse. What it is is yet another example of an offer Liston turned down to fight lesser opposition, or at least what would have been perceived as lesser opposition at the time of the offer. Im going to state again, this entire debate started with people saying Liston couldnt offers for bigger fights. Have you or anyone else refuted that he was indeed getting offers for bigger fights and turning them down? Not one single person here has been able to directly confront that fact. Period. The closest anyone has come was to say Liston turned down one if the six or seven offers Liston turned because somehow he blamed Dundee for his (Listons) unpaid taxes. Good luck getting anyone who isnt some starry eyed Liston nuthugger to believe that was anything but an excuse to not take a tough fight. The sum total of every other arguments rests on the imagination of a handful of clowns who think the same Liston who was brutally stopped by Leotis ****ing Martin had the entire heavyweight division running scared by beating what every other observer of the time called a bunch of nobodies and his “bum of the month” club. Sure, they were terrified of him LOL.